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Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new policy'

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:49 am
by _I have a question
Jane Reiss posed the following question about Elder Nelsons statement on the New anti-gay-parents ban policy-which-has-recently-become-revelation.

So what does this mean for the many, many Latter-day Saints who have indeed prayed about this, fasted about this, and similarly “wrestled at length” to get the Lord’s guidance — only to receive a totally different answer than the prophet’s?

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2016/ ... h.nSDB2Wr3.

She goes on to honestly declare:
I don’t believe God is behind this policy. This does not feel like holy revelation from the same God who declared there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female — for we are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gregory Smith answers the question:
“What Should I Do If I Think I’ve Received Revelation Different from Apostles and Prophets?”

1. As a first step, we ought to seriously consider whether we are mistaken or misled.

2. We should pray to have our heart changed if this is necessary.

3. We should be patient

4. If, after all this, we still believe we are being told that the leaders of the Church are wrong, we are still not authorized to publicly preach or urge a different course of action or teaching.

5. We may be taught things by revelation that are true, and for our comfort, but it is still not our place to spread them publicly, or use them to advocate for change, and so forth.

http://blog.fairmormon.org/2016/01/11/w ... -prophets/

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:14 pm
by _Ceeboo
Gregory Smith answers the question:
“What Should I Do If I Think I’ve Received Revelation Different from Apostles and Prophets?”

1. As a first step, we ought to seriously consider whether we are mistaken or misled.

2. We should pray to have our heart changed if this is necessary.

3. We should be patient

4. If, after all this, we still believe we are being told that the leaders of the Church are wrong, we are still not authorized to publicly preach or urge a different course of action or teaching.

5. We may be taught things by revelation that are true, and for our comfort, but it is still not our place to spread them publicly, or use them to advocate for change, and so forth.



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Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:54 pm
by _Kishkumen
It's always helpful to have someone tell you where things stand.

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:10 pm
by _Chap
Kishkumen wrote:It's always helpful to have someone tell you where things stand.


It seems that the advice given to those Mormons unfortunate enough to believe that they have received advice from their deity that differs from the public statements of the FP/12 is a variation on something from an early Christian thinker quoted by Karl Marx:

"The bourgeoisie never wearied of crying out to the revolution what Saint Arsenius cried out to the Christians "Fuge tace, quiesce! Flee, be silent, keep still!"

18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte. VII.

Only in this case, the order is different: Shut up about your dissent, do nothing about it, and then if you can't manage that, get out of the church.

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:48 pm
by _Symmachus
Wow, I'm amazed Smith managed to keep it under a 100 pages. And I like his sources: next to luminaries like Marion G. Romney (presumably written in a lucid state) and a 19th century editorial from the Deseret News, he quotes the neoconservative icon Leo Strauss (cited in Smith's actual source, Henry Eyring). Just keep the hard-hitting analysis coming, Brother Smith.

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:07 pm
by _Runtu
In keeping with my new, vulgar persona, here's Pete Townshend paraphrasing Greg Smith:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjumawGYmwg

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:25 pm
by _Tom
Brother Smith counsels:
We should pray to have our heart changed if this is necessary.

Marion G. Romney, later of the First Presidency, had an experience very like this. Harold B. Lee described it:
In the political field where so much pressure is exerted on men to compromise ideals and principles for expediency, party workers early learned to admire Marion G. Romney’s intense loyalty to his own conscience as well as to the advice of his Church leaders, whose pronouncements on vital issues affecting the welfare of the nation he accepted as divinely inspired even though it frequently brought him into sharp conflict with leaders of his own political party. On one such occasion when Church leaders in a tersely worded editorial had denounced the trends of the political administration then in power, he confided in me something which it might be well if all loyal Church members in public life could emulate: “When I read that editorial,” he told me, “I knew what I should do—but that wasn’t enough. I knew that I must feel right about following the counsel of the Church leaders and know that they were right. That took a whole night on my knees to accomplish.” I submit in that statement the difference between “intelligent” and “blind” obedience. Marion G. Romney, while never disloyal to authority over him, could never be rightfully accused of being “blindly obedient.” (62-16, p. 742)[2]

The editorial in question, titled "The Constitution" and published on the front page of the Deseret News on October 31, 1936, stated in full:
More than one hundred years ago the Lord declared: "I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose." In the same revelation He asserted that this Constitution "should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles."

For many weeks The News has carried at the head of its editorial column a statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith giving his view of the origin, purpose, and virtue of the Constitution. The Prophet also declared the peculiar relationship which the people of the Church have towards the Constitution and its preservation.

We are nearing the end of a Presidential campaign.

The issues of the campaign touching the Constitution seem clearly and squarely drawn.

One candidate has characterized the Constitution as of "horse and buggy days;" he has advised members of Congress to join in enacting laws irrespective of the belief of the Congressmen as to the constitutionality of such laws. The great bulk of the pivotal legislation passed by Congress at his request, to carry out his views, has been pronounced unconstitutional. Even though publicly asked to declare his intention in the matter, he has thus far failed to say that he will not continue to carry out the principles of his earlier legislation which the Supreme Court has declared unconstitutional. He keeps his silence in face of the fact that if he be elected, he must take an oath--the same which he took when he first became President--that "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

The other candidate has declared he stands for the Constitution and for the American system of government which it sets up. He makes it clear that he will keep inviolate the oath which he must take as President of the United States. He has shown himself to be an honest, truthful man, a patriotic efficient public servant.

The Church and its membership have always stood for constitutional government; they have resisted with all their might every effort to impair it, or to curtail our liberties, or to destroy our free institutions set up and guaranteed by it, no matter where such effort originated or in what disguise it came. The First Presidency, obedient to the principles of the Church, have admonished Church members against Communism, and against all persons wherever placed, who in any way advocate or sustain it.

Church members, who believe the revelations and the words of the Prophet, must stand for the Constitution. Every patriot, loving his country and its institutions, should feel in duty bound to protect it.

Romney, a Democratic state legislator who had been serving on the reelection committee for Utah governor Henry Blood, resigned from the committee and tried, in the few remaining days until the election, to convince his friends not to vote for Franklin Roosevelt.

Roosevelt carried 69% of the popular vote in Utah.

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:42 pm
by _Sethbag
Strangely, it doesn't seem to occur to either Smith or Riess that her having received personal revelation that the policy is not from God, while the Big Cheese 15 received personal revelation that it is, is pretty good evidence for the assertion that revelation through the Holy Ghost isn't a reliable, repeatable method of ascertaining truth.

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:04 pm
by _Doctor CamNC4Me
So, basically cede all morality over to another human being who is doing the very thing you're doing in order to figure something out?

Brilliant advice.

You know. These assholes will throw a prophet or apostle under the bus in a New York minute, but then turn right around and tell you to trust whatever apostle or prophet above everything else. Why don't they follow their own advice on *insert troubling Mormon doctrine*?

Dudes. The further away I'm from that cult the clearer it becomes. Here's Scientology Mormonism in a nutshell:

1) Don't crap talk the Church. At all.

2) Give it money.

V/R
Doc

Re: Gregory Smith tells Riess to 'keep quiet about new polic

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:08 am
by _grindael
Like I keep saying, the hardcore TBM's believe their "prophets" are infallible. If this doesn't prove it, I don't know what will. Joseph Smith, 1844:

I testify that no man has power to reveal it but myself—things in heaven, in earth and hell; and all shut your mouths for the future.