19:2 FARMS Review piece by Ted Lyon

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

19:2 FARMS Review piece by Ted Lyon

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=review&id=661

I liked this piece. The writer was smart enough to not try to stick the tiny LDS Church into the idea of Global Christianity and only mentions the LDS Church in one paragraph (it is an LDS collection so I guess you gotta pay homage to Moroni) and sticks to the main issue of Christianity becoming more umm....Equator-centric. Overall it's a good piece, concise, and makes a good point about what will happen if Christian numbers significantly shift from the traditional America/Europe areas to Africa/Asia/S. America, namely that those people will want to have some say in how they go spiritually, not willing to take their lead from people far away.

Just a few thoughts:

Jenkins seems unsure how to handle the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints within the United States and indeed throughout the entire world. He presumes it to be "independent" from general Christianity (see p. 60). Later he notes that many "hard-line Northern observers would consider [Mormonism] only a semi-Christian movement," but he offers little definition for what a "semi-Christian" religion would be (p. 66). He hardly even counts Latter-day Saints, since worldwide the number of Latter-day Saints is still rather small in comparison to Protestant Christians. Jenkins does briefly explain why many religious denominations find it difficult to accept Mormons as Christians: the use of additional scriptures and various unique doctrines not shared by other Christian religions (see p. 86).


Thankfully Lyon doesn't dwell or whine about how Jenkins won't pay attention to the LDS Church or go for the black hole "Are Mormons Christian?" question that is really irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Jenkins argues that the new world Christendom will be poorer as it expands through Africa and South America. Christ's doctrines appeal more to the hungry masses than to those with full bellies. Jenkins's recent book The New Faces of Christianity explores the relationship between poverty and religion with innovative analysis supported by statistics. The new Christianity will not only appeal to the poor, but it will also become more conservative, emphasizing personal revelation, angelic visitations, and the presence of many prophets. It will become more syncretic, as the example of the Virgin of Guadalupe demonstrates. Her story began in a tiny town near Mexico City, but she now transcends her country of origin and has become the patron saint of all Latin America. Similar mixes of local myths and apparitions will infuse the new Christianity with vitality and may even become the norm, according to Jenkins's projections. These charismatic elements will then manifest themselves in the United States as well as in the South. Jenkins also projects considerable splintering, with more local leaders breaking off from established churches and forming new centers and types of worship in the Southern Hemisphere.


I question whether it will become more syncretic because I wonder how much traditional Christian leaders from Europe and America will give up power and control of dogma and theology. Seems unlikely that "Northern" Christian institutions (particularly the Catholic Church but also Evangelical Churches founded in northern countries which have also provided alot of the "start up" money for missionaries to go South and convert) will just allow the initiative to be seized by these new Christians.

The new Christian church (composed of many denominations) will be an evangelizing, missionary Christendom, but not only in the South—thousands of missionaries will, he imagines, come from Africa, Asia, and South America to reclaim and return the apostate North to Christ. As a harbinger, Jenkins notes that in 2002 there were already fifteen hundred foreign missionaries teaching and preaching in Great Britain alone, hailing from fifty nations! Evangelizing the North will only increase in future decades. Christianity will survive, transformed and vibrant.


I think this is an interesting point. I wonder though if Christianity will still be Christianity if it makes such a radical transformation from Northern centers (Rome/Jerusalem) to apparanently new places in Africa/S. America or Asia. Time will tell right?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Boaz & Lidia
_Emeritus
Posts: 1416
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:31 am

Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YEST did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YET did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.


As I recall, he eliminated those bogus member procedures while he was the Mission President there.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Boaz & Lidia
_Emeritus
Posts: 1416
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:31 am

Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

moksha wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YET did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.


As I recall, he eliminated those bogus member procedures while he was the Mission President there.
Perhaps he did, but he did NOT clean up the thousands of bogus membership records.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YET did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.


As I recall, he eliminated those bogus member procedures while he was the Mission President there.
Perhaps he did, but he did NOT clean up the thousands of bogus membership records.


That would be quite a task to determine which ones were bogus and which ones were real. I suspect he would have faced resistance from headquarters to pare down the membership numbers.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Boaz & Lidia
_Emeritus
Posts: 1416
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:31 am

Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

moksha wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YET did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.


As I recall, he eliminated those bogus member procedures while he was the Mission President there.
Perhaps he did, but he did NOT clean up the thousands of bogus membership records.


That would be quite a task to determine which ones were bogus and which ones were real. I suspect he would have faced resistance from headquarters to pare down the membership numbers.
Well, he obviously did not try.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Post by _moksha »

Boaz & Lidia wrote: Well, he obviously did not try.


Just putting such a practice to a halt seems praiseworthy to me. Neither of us really knows about efforts or lack of efforts to eliminate the bogus members.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_guy sajer
_Emeritus
Posts: 1372
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 am

Post by _guy sajer »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:
moksha wrote:I became a fan of Dr. Ted Lyon via watching him on the three video interviews by John Dehlin on Youtube (as part of Dehlin's Mormonstories).
Why is that? Because he pointed out the blatant dishonest techniques employed by the LDS missionary program YEST did nothing to clean it up? He is no better than the rest of em in my opinion.


There are many people of high integrity in Mormon Inc. Just because they act as you would have them do doesn't mean that they lack integrity.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Post Reply