Faith Transitions

[_Sam Harris]

I've been thinking about my personal journey a lot lately, because I feel that there is a spiritual void in my life, but I don't quite know where to turn as of late. To put it plainly, things have been very difficult these past couple of years, and my experiences have definitely changed my view of God. I've finally let go of that need to please God so to speak, and if I feel my "conscience" speaking to me, it's more out of a need to treat my neighbor fairly, rather than a feeling of fear of divine retribution.

On Gaz's apostasy thread, TD made a statement that touched me deeply:

I got to a point where I needed to follow what I believe is truth and holiness. I needed to live in accordance with what I consider the highest light of which I am capable, rather than remain in a situation where I was constantly feeling at odds with goodness and the ultimate unfolding of the universe.

It's so cool when you can read writing that puts into words what you cannot. Thanks, TD.

Lately I've been feeling a need to reconnect with my inner being and what I feel to be my spiritual nature, and I have felt like I haven't been and am not being true to myself. The churches that I've been to no longer carry spiritual weight with me, I find that I'm no longer being fed. Traditional Christianity is something that I feel myself moving away from. I'm actually starting to study Buddhism, but I don't know if I'll be placing myself under any "faith label" any time soon.

I'm reading a book about finding your spiritual path, and one of the chapters spoke about people who were born into one faith who had left for another...and how the family members, especially the parents often took it as a personal affront that their child would leave the faith of their youth. My grandmother went through this as all ofher family left our Jewish upbringing. I've often thought about returning, but probably to a more orthodox (not completely strict, though) congregation.

I realized that it was not unique to the LDS church that family members would feel personally insulted or abandoned when a member left the family faith. Why do people do this? I don't see myself encountering this in the future, as my family's spiritual paths are far too diverse these days (not to mention none of them care what I do). But it does intrigue me, why/how people identify so deeply with their religion. I never felt that way. I believe in God, I cannot see myself not believing in God, but I see that as just the way my brain is wired, neither right nor wrong.

Thoughts? Sorry if this is all jumbled, I'm sleepy and my brain hasn't functioned at top speed for the past two years...too much on my mind, I guess.

[_cinepro]

You should definitely check out this book:

Stages of Faith

Here's a good article that gives an overview as it applies to LDS:

Stages of Faith from an LDS Perspective

Here's a podcast that discusses it from an LDS perspective:

001: James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 1 of 3

Also, go to Sunstone and use the search function to search for MP3's with the subject "Fowler". There have been several presentations over the years that discuss his ideas, and some are free to download.

Lots more available if you Google "stages of faith LDS".

[_Sam Harris]

Hey Cinepro,

This book's referral to stages of faith sounds very similar to the book I'm reading.

Finding Your Religion

I wish I had brought it with me. In that book, there are six stages. Stage 1 (Magic), Stage 2 (Reality), Stage 3 (Dependence), Stage 4 (Independence), Stage 5 (Interdependence), Stage 6 (Unity). They sound similar to what Fowler describes. I think I'm stuck between stages 4 and 5. I wonder how many people actually reach state 6 and stay there. I like how McLennan pointed out that in stages 4-6, you didn't really have to believe in God to progress. It was how you viewed other faiths and yourself in relation to them that was important.

The church baptizes Stage 3 people, and maybe a few Stage 5s. With its heavy reliance on Stage 3, the church is unlikely to attract many Stage 4s.

Very true, but I don't think I really agree with Thompson's definition of stage 4 as I understand it. He said (and he could be quoting Fowler, I don't know):

Stage 4 people are not nearly as useful for the institution. They consider their own judgement paramount and will accept the institutional leaders' direction and community norms only when they match their own judgement. These people place loyalty to self over loyalty to the institution. Further, Stage 4 individuals have a need to demythologize and deconstruct the myths and symbols that Stage 3s rely on.

I don't think that many in stage 4 are even completely sure of their own judgment, but they are sure of the fact that thinking for themselves (and being wrong/learning from that wrong) is far better than allowing someone to think for them. And there are many in stage 4 who do not demythologize at all. I think that those who are are usually still feeling the sting of being disillusioned out of stages 1 and 2, where "God" is this parent figure who punishes or rewards based on behavior. McLennan described very well some of the individuals on here who have completely rejected all faiths. There is pain involved there, and they are unable to get past that pain and realize that this does not define the entire spiritual experience.

I also can't help but wonder how many people in the LDS church are still in stages 1 and 2. For example, those who believe unequivocally the version of church history (not to mention the veracity of the Book of Mormon) given out by SLC. I often believe it is people in stages 1 and 2, more so than people in stage 3 (who might go along with the more vocal stage 1 or 2 individual who cannot stand dissention) who drive questioners out of church. For in stage 1, "God" is still that almighty miracle worker who parted the Red Sea, and made a virgin pregnant, while in stage 2, "God" is watching you, and will spank you if you're naughty.

Me personally, I'd love to get to stage 6. I think that's as close to nirvana as one can get in this life. I consider myself between stages 4 and 5, because I still have trouble finding my way within the institution, yet I see the value of it for many, and in some ways wish I could find one that I could belong to myself. But there is still a part of me that is that "independent" that I chafe at any restrictions put upon me.

This is the way McLennan outlined it. Can you find online anywhere an outline that Fowler has done? Thompson was right that most LDS are in stage 3, though you do have some who I believe want to stay in stages 1 and 2, as it is "safer" for them. I've read some spiritually-based fiction, and one of the books I read recently had an individual explaining why he wanted to remain within the Mennonite faith of his upbringing. Many people, like this individual, choose to stay within a spiritual community because in essence, the thinking is done for them. That sounds harsh, but the outcome has already been decided for them, all they have to do is follow the "right" path.

Me, I'm not sure I can do that anymore, because the "path" I was on often seemed like it was going in circles. McLennan says we're all on the same mountain, we're just taking different ways up.

WHAT STAGE ARE YOU IN?
A Faith Stage Checklist


Stage One (Magic)
Is your world full of spirits and demons?
Are fairy tales your favorite kind of literature?
Do you think God makes everything happen, for good and bad?

Stage Two (Reality)
Do you spend a lot of time trying to determine what's real and what's not?
Are scriptures true in a concrete and literal sense, rather than being stories and maxims that may or may not be real?
Do you feel that you can influence God's actions by being good?

Stage Three (Dependence)
Do you have a very important peer group or leader who is primarily responsible for shaping your faith?
Is it important to you to understand and follow religious doctrine and moral rules?
Is your main image of God that of a perfect parent?

Stage Four (Independence)
Is your spiritual life unique and personal?
Do you often find yourself wanting to demystify scripture?
Do you think of God or Ultimate Reality primarily as an impersonal force or spirit (or as nonexistent)?

Stage Five (Interdependence)
Do you find a spiritual community important to you at the same time that you maintain your own distinctive faith?
Do you experience spiritual power in religious symbols and myths that you can also analyze objectively?
Do you conceive of God or Ultimate Reality both as a person and as an impersonal force?

Stage Six (Unity)
Do you sense your self in community with religiously committed people of any and all traditions?
Is your consciousness ego-free and beyond paradox and ambiguity?
Do you often feel that God or divine spirit is in everything and that everything exists in God or divine spirit?

[_truth dancer]

Hey Sam,

Your thoughts were clear and totally understandable! :-)

I too like, and resonate with Fowler's, Stages of Faith...

Basically, he describes the spiritual journey and how many of us humans, move through various stages of growth as we mature and seek understanding.

Those who are open to deepening and expanding our hearts, spirits and minds can move into new ways of experiencing life and the "spiritual".

Those who rigidly hold to a particular "truth" remain in a stage of spiritual development.

Another book that approaches this idea from a very different viewpoint is Chopra's, How to Know God.

One thing that I felt uneasy about the LDS church is that it keeps one at a very early stage of "faith." In other words, there is nothing about the spiritual journey only teachings to obey, follow, and remain faithful. It, in my experience had nothing to offer in the way of deepening ones life experience or expanding ones heart.

I have not found a "religion" that feels satisfying, but I have found others who seem to live in a state of internal peace and holiness that I find inviting.

And, your baby is DARLING! :-)

~td~

[_Inconceivable]

Lately I've been feeling a need to reconnect with my inner being and what I feel to be my spiritual nature, and I have felt like I haven't been and am not being true to myself.

Thankyou Sam, for your reflections - for the reminder about what not to overlook. I hope you and your little family are doing well.

[_Sam Harris]

Hey Inc, thanks for the kudos. The family is well. Little man is a trip, and exactly like his father. They face off regularly, it's so funny.

Hi TD!

You mean my brain is actually working? Wow...because I swear I lose words on the regular these days...it wasn't like that before I got sick. Perhaps I just have too much on my mind.

I'll have to check out Fowler's and Chopra's books once I finish McLennan's. Perhaps if I didn't have my nose in so many novels, I'd be able to finish McLennan's book faster. But it's nice to be able to read "junk". Once I go back to school, I won't have time.

One thing that I felt uneasy about the LDS church is that it keeps one at a very early stage of "faith." In other words, there is nothing about the spiritual journey only teachings to obey, follow, and remain faithful. It, in my experience had nothing to offer in the way of deepening ones life experience or expanding ones heart.

I had this experience as well, and I'm sure many others have who have traveled through the church. I started to feel that way once I realized that it wasn't kosher from the LDS POV, for me not to be a scripture literalist...at least not openly. And I'm the type of person who, if I can't be myself openly in a situation, I don't want to be there at all. I've hidden enough in my life. I'm determined to be authentic, even if the authentic me at that moment isn't pretty. I'm catching flak for it, but so be it.

Once I caught heat for wanting to be more progressive in my spiritual walk as an LDS, I began to be suspicious about other things as well. Why couldn't I listen to my favorite music (the people in my singles ward all seemed to listen to the same station...500+ people...no variation)? What was wrong with oreos with coffee-flavored cream in them? Did I have to say that I knew the church was true when giving my testimony, when I felt that a church was simply a structure, that the community was more important?

I like the benefits that come with religious communities, that sense of belonging and friendship, but I find myself not wanting to stay when the restrictions come. I am my own person, and I question everything. I always have. I'm that kid who never stopped asking "why?". If the answer doesn't satisfy me, I'm gonna ask again. You can't just tell me to do or believe something without giving me a good reason. With that said, there are certain things within my belief system that I cannot fully explain, but I just put that down to the way my brain is wired...and give others the same leeway with their personal experiences. It's when I'm dictated to that there comes a problem.

I just don't know where to turn next. I try to take away from each faith I've walked through something good, and for the most part the only thing I was able to take from the LDS church were my friends. I consider them an asset to the faith, and if change is to come to the church, it will come through people like them. With that said, I remembered today, part of a sermon that was preached at a church I used to attend. The pastor said there were three types of spiritual storms: storms of direction (life events that place you where you need to be), storms of correction (life events that are in place because you haven't acted in accordance with what you know to be the highest good), and storms of perfection (life events that you can't give a logical answer "why" to, they're just there, and you hope that you come out a better person after going through them). I think I'm in the latter. I can't pray anymore, though I find myself muttering out of habit. My worldview has changed, but I don't know what to do with it. I want to move forward, but in a manner in which I feel to be "walking right". Does that make sense?

Well, I must go. I'm at the library, and I have to change munchkin before I go to pick up his father. Thanks TD, for the compliment on little one. My avatar is a pic of him the day we brought him home. That was five weeks ago, and he was swimming in his newborn clothes. Now they fit, and he's starting to fill out everything else, too. :-) Quite the character. He yells at me all the time. Not crying, YELLING. It's funny. I'm learning to discern the different cries, though he will frighten me from time to time with his screams of rage (that we can't understand him). Daddy got yelled at the other day, because little man screamed like a banshee (he was overtired, but didn't want to sleep). It woke me up, and I go into the living room to see them both sitting there confused...I had no idea what was going on. Well, now baby boy does that shrieking thing to me, so I understand Dad's consternation.