concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

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_Seven
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Seven »

loves2sing wrote:
But, if you never expected a Prophet to be perfect, then how could you expect him to be perfect in telling the truth (or even knowing the truth) about whether or not he was truly inspired at a particular moment?

It sounds like you did expect perfection from them, in that area, at least.




Great questions. :smile:

I didn't expect perfection when they were functioning in their official role either. I expect to find grammatical errors or translation errors of that nature in scriptures and other sermons that were written by scribes.
As an example, I have no problem with most of the changes made to the Book of Mormon and other scriptures:
From here:

"As we stated earlier, most of the 3,913 changes which we found were related to the correction of grammatical and spelling errors and do not really change the basic meaning of the text." (Jerald and Sandra Tanner, The Changing World of Mormonism, Chicago: Moody Pres., 1980, p 131, emphasis added)

When the Prophet Joseph dictated the translation from the plates, a scribe copied down his words. Since only Jesus Christ was perfect, it is not surprising that the scribes made some minor errors. In addition, the non-Mormon typesetter that the Church hired to take the handwritten manuscript to book form was forced to decipher the scribe’s handwriting to set the type. Also, consider that the printing process in 1830 was much more manual and cumbersome than the ones we use today. With all the intervention by fallible mortals required to bring forth the printing of the Book of Mormon, it is surprising that more grammatical and spelling errors were not made. It is important to note that the changes in the Book of Mormon text are actually insignificant to the number of changes that have been made in the Bible throughout the centuries.


But yes, I did expect the Prophets to speak honestly and accurately in a general sense about their revelations for the church on doctrinal matters. For example, when the Prophets taught for many many years that Blacks were cursed with black skin and denied the Priesthood because of their unfaithfulness in the pre existence, faithful Mormons believed in their words. There are countless teachings on this, yet it suddenly becomes opinion after they removed the ban.


If you read what they are teaching children about the role of Mormon Prophets, you will see why Chapel Mormons view the Prophets differently than Internet Mormons.

Here is what they are currently teaching the Young Women about Mormon Prophets at church:

Follow the Brethren


“Lesson 13: Follow the Brethren,” The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part B, 99
The purpose of this lesson is to motivate us to follow the directions we receive from the Lord’s ordained leaders.
The Lord Speaks to Us through His Prophets
• • Ask class members to read and mark Doctrine and Covenants 1:38. Who is the Lord’s prophet and mouthpiece on the earth today?

God reveals His word to us through prophets (see Amos 3:7). As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to know that there is a prophet on the earth, who serves as President of the Church, and that through this prophet the Lord makes known His mind and will. When the prophet speaks to us in the name of the Lord, he speaks what the Lord would say if He were here.
We also believe “all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).
It is a blessing to be members of the true Church and to know that our prophet speaks the will of the Lord for today. Knowing that the Lord speaks through His prophet reassures us that the Savior lives and that He loves us and is interested in us.
The prophet who leads the Church will never lead us astray. He tells us things that pertain to our lives now. The prophet gives us instruction from the Lord at general conference, which is held twice each year. He also gives the Lord’s counsel to us at other conferences held throughout the world. Many of the prophet’s addresses are printed in the Church magazines.

In addition to the President of the Church, other men are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators. These are the prophet’s counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve. These Brethren also receive revelation, bring us the will of the Lord, bear witness of the divinity of Christ, teach the plan of salvation, and perform ordinances.

President Harold B. Lee said: “If you want to know what the Lord has for this people at the present time, I would admonish you to get and read the discourses that have been delivered at this [general] conference; for what these brethren have spoken by the power of the Holy Ghost is the mind of the Lord, the will of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation”
(in Conference Report, Apr. 1973, 176; or Ensign, July 1973, 121).

Another experience of meeting a prophet is told by Sister Piriko Valkama Petersen.
• • Have a class member read the following story:
“In the summer of 1952 the young people from our branch were enjoying Girl Scout camp near Helsinki, Finland, and anticipating a visit from President David O. McKay. A beautiful grove surrounded by tall birch trees was chosen as the setting for welcoming the president, and since the summer had been lovely, we believed that this special day would be beautiful too.
“As the time approached, and we talked of his visit, one of the girls suddenly asked, ‘What will happen to our testimonies if he does not act and look like a prophet?’ Little by little, doubts began to creep into our minds. The darkness of these doubts seemed to be reflected even in nature, as dark, heavy clouds gathered above our heads on the day of his coming and the rain came down in torrents. I remember sitting under a large tree with a friend, watching the rain beat down on the lake, and again and again my thoughts returned to the gnawing fear that the president might not meet our expectations. I knew he would not appear in white robes like the prophets of old we saw in pictures, but that he would be dressed like an ordinary man. So strongly did I fear losing my testimony that if I could, I would have run away. But that was not to be, I had been chosen to give the welcoming speech.
“As we walked toward the grove, the rain let up, but the sky was so gray and the clouds so heavy it was almost dark. Our Scout uniforms were wet, and we were drained of enthusiasm. In silence we … waited. My place was in the middle of the line. I was supposed to take three steps forward, greet President McKay and his company, wish Sister McKay a happy birthday and give a flower to her.
“Into this dark, damp setting drove a black car. And then, as President McKay stepped from the car, the sun broke through and suddenly the grove was a sea of light. The leaves and grass sparkled as the rays of sun hit the raindrops. We were stunned and momentarily blinded by this intense light.
“I looked at the president but could not see him clearly. All I could see was his majestic silhouette against the sun, with the light against his beautiful white hair forming, it seemed, a shining halo around his head. We all gasped and stood in awed silence.
“The time had come for me to take my three steps forward and welcome the president, but I could not move. I knew that if I took those three steps, he would immediately see the doubts and fears in my heart that had been tormenting me. Everyone waited, and I stood there helpless.
“Finally we heard the mission president … prompting, ‘Sister Valkama, didn’t you have something to say to us?’ I forced myself to take three very small steps. The tears streamed down my face. …
“I tried to speak. Confused and embarrassed, I stood there and wept quietly. Then I heard President McKay’s voice.
‘Come here, my child.’
“I went to him and he took both my hands in his and held them while I gave my greeting. I was aware of his golden, tanned skin and the warm light in his eyes. I felt as though it was as important for him to help me as it was for me to give my message. A feeling of complete peace flowed from his hands into me. My fear of him judging me, which I had felt only a moment earlier, left me and an overwhelming feeling of love had taken its place. I knew he was the prophet of God who had come not to judge us but to love us” (“When the Sun Broke Through,” Ensign, Aug. 1976, 37).


We should pray for the prophet in our private and family prayers. We should teach our children to be thankful for and to pray for the prophet, as illustrated in this story: “One family knelt in prayer soon after hearing the news of the death of President Joseph Fielding Smith. The father expressed thankfulness for having lived during the ministry of that great prophet. He then thanked the Lord for all the prophets who have lived, and especially for President Harold B. Lee [the new President of the Church]. He prayed that his children might become acquainted with the new prophet and study his teachings. ‘Bless these fine children, Father,’ he prayed, ‘that they might follow those who follow the prophet and never do anything that President Lee would not do’ ” (Marian Sorensen, “Teaching Children through Prayer,” Ensign, May 1973, 34).

After local leaders are chosen, they are presented for our sustaining vote. When we raise our hands to sustain them, we are promising to follow them and help them in their callings. President James E. Faust taught that obedience to priesthood leaders’ counsel can bring us great comfort. He said: “I do not speak of blind obedience, but rather the obedience of faith, which supports and sustains decisions with confidence that they are inspired. I advocate being more in tune with the Spirit so we may feel a confirming witness of the truthfulness of the direction we receive from our priesthood leaders. There is great safety and peace in supporting our priesthood leaders in their decisions” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1997, 59; or Ensign, May 1997, 42–43).
• • What might a local priesthood leader ask us to do? How can we show that we believe he is called of God?
Parents have a responsibility to teach their children to sustain and support their local priesthood leaders. They should never criticize priesthood leaders or say unkind things about them. Criticizing our leaders endangers our own salvation. We should be careful to speak highly of priesthood leaders in front of our children. We should teach them to be loyal to the offices of the Lord’s kingdom. Our children will then learn by example to be loyal to both the offices and those called to serve as our priesthood leaders in these offices.

“The men who hold the Priesthood are but mortal men; they are fallible men. …
“Nevertheless, God has chosen these men. He has singled them out. They have not done it themselves; but He has selected them, and He has placed upon them the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and they have become His representatives in the earth. …
“And those who lift their voices … against the authority of the Holy Priesthood … will go down to hell, unless they repent” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, sel. Jerreld L. Newquist, 2nd ed., 2 vols. [1974], 1:276).

Conclusion
Heavenly Father loves us and has given us prophets to guide us. The prophet who is President of the Church will never lead us astray. We must gain a testimony of the prophet and teach our children to listen to his words.
Local priesthood leaders have also been called of God to help us. We should sustain and support them. We should be willing to listen to their counsel and advice as it is given to guide us in our personal lives.
When we show love and respect for our prophet and local leaders, those around us will also feel more inclined to do so.



To read the lesson in full, click here.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Seven »

loves2sing wrote:And I find myself wondering about prophecy. I think I get it, that a prophet wouldn't necessarily be functioning as a prophet all of the time. So, like you, I don't think Joseph Smith's behavior when he wasn't functioning that way reflects on the truth about the LDS faith. He (or any other prophet) is a human being, and perhaps not a very good disciple... But if a prophet's human imperfections include not always knowing when he is or isn't inspired, how can I know which of his pronouncements I can trust?



Exactly. A Prophet's personal weakness for women/sexual sins, dishonesty about those relationships, etc. do not necessarily reflect on the claims of the church (although it does harm his character in terms of credibility) because we are all sinners and human. God works with us despite our imperfections.

But speaking on behalf of God should have some kind of reliability or they would cease to be Prophets.
You really seem to understand the dilemma here when it comes to trusting their doctrines and revelations when they ARE speaking for the Lord.

An internet Mormon would probably tell you that we must seek personal revelation on their teachings, and that it isn’t their role to define Mormon doctrine correctly or to reveal answers to doctrinal questions like they once did. They might also tell you that the only official doctrine is contained in the four standard works.
(Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants)

Critics do not assert that Internet Mormons "reject the Prophets" completely. We know they honor and love these men with as much sincerity as Chapel Mormons (I would say even more so because they are aware of the troubling history & still hold them to be honorable men), and sincerely believe they are witnesses to Christ. But where they differ significantly is their view that a Prophet's fallibility extends into anything that has been revealed and spoken from the pulpit to the church.


In stark contrast, Chapel Mormons believe the sermons they hear at General Conference twice a year are modern day scripture, in some cases more important than previous teachings. They believe that church cirriculum and publications represents doctrine. As you can see from the lesson above, rejecting the Prophets counsel/sermons is to reject God himself. They are taught to have a testimony that Prophets speak for God in these discourses and publications. That is the one of the main differences between both groups.

In other words, if a critic states internet Mormons have rejected the Prophets, it's referring to solid doctrine and teachings from previous Prophets that they have rejected and discarded as "opinion."
Such as the doctrine and teachings by LDS Prophets that polygamy is required for exaltation, or blacks and the Priesthood, evolution, the flood, etc.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_Seven
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Seven »

loves2sing wrote:Hi, Seven.

Okay, let's see if I get it. Is this a fair summary?

"Internet Mormons" are apologists and those who accept apologists' arguments. They assume the faith is true. They are aware of historical and doctrinal problem areas, but dismiss them by arguing that these problems are all rooted in the individual opinions of former church leaders, rather than caused by any actual problems with the "revealed" faith.

"Chapel Mormons" simply accept what they are taught in church and Sunday school, and don't question the official teachings. They don't investigate outside of church publications, and would dismiss anything troubling from such outside sources as coming from Satan.

(Please correct any errors & advise me of significant omissions.)



I think you've got it. :smile: (well, at least how I use the terms)

As I mentioned before, there will be small differences found within both groups of minor degrees on the spectrum. For me the term Chapel Mormon is very useful for internet discussions in referring to the rank and file members who are unaware of the unvarnished church history that internet Mormons defend. If I were to conduct a survery to members in my Ward on polygamy or the Book of Abraham for example, it would be very easy to prove this division exists.


What is a New Order Mormon?
[/quote]

Here's the New Order Mormon website.
http://www.newordermormon.org/

I consider myself a New Order Mormon, and there are others that post here who also do. :smile:
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_moksha
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _moksha »

I think Dr. Peterson is right. Being an Internet Mormon only ensures you are aware of historical and other issues surrounding Mormonism that are never discussed in Church. It is in no way indicative of how an Internet Mormon regards such information. That is where individual variance comes into play.
It initiates the denial mechanism in some, while the rest do their reconciliation is some other manner. There are even former apologists on this site who found that leaving the Church was their best coping mechanism.
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_loves2sing
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _loves2sing »

The teenage girl who is the youth leader (not sure if the youth leaders are called president) of our ward's Mia Maids (ages 14 & 15) was caught drinking alcohol by her parents last night.

My daughter found out on Facebook. The girl posted that she was grounded, and, when someone asked her why, gave this reason.

(Interesting side note: My daughter had made plans to "hang out" with this girl yesterday, but somehow the plans didn't work out... Not sure if the girl was honest with my daughter or not. Anyway, I'm glad those plans fell through.)

I'm very curious to see how this will be handled.

Will the parents go to the Bishop? Will she be removed from her calling? Will it all be hush-hush, or will something be said to the rest of the youth and parents?
Love is not the answer. Love is the assignment.
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_Roger Morrison
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Re: concerns & appreciations re LDS faith & community

Post by _Roger Morrison »

This is not unusual. All teens--even LDS--are exposed to challenges. Individually they have their own dispositions to react according to their proclivities...Remember when? :rolleyes:

As a former LDS local leader, I recall one incident where a couple of bottles of wine were smuggled into an out-of-town Youth Activity... Big thing at the time, but it was handled kindly and realistically... No punishment as such, the kids felt bad enough having broken trust and doing something wrong and dangerous...

I think your daughter is generally in a good environment, at the time. This too is a good experience for both of you. Your support, while it may seem secondary at the moment, is paramont. Good luck...
Roger
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