Obeying Church Leaders as a pervasive theme

[Guest]

Buffalo,

How long were you an apologist?

Well, I'm a lifelong member. I started doing the online apologetics thing (read: arguing on the internet in favor of the church) maybe five years ago. That's where I was introduced to the concept of dismissing bizarre statements from general authorities as mere opinions. That was exciting at first - I certainly had always been disturbed by a few quotes from BY and McConkie, and it was nice to be able to dismiss them. But then as the years went on I found myself having to ascribe a great deal of prophetic sermonizing to the "unofficial opinions" pile. It adds up.

However, it was nothing internal to the church that ultimately led me to lose faith. Certainly apologetics weakened my faith, as did the revelation a few years ago during the FLDS controversy about Smith's teenage brides and wife swapping. Polygamy by itself was disturbing enough, but the creepiness of marrying 14 year olds was hard to swallow. Also, the wife swapping thing really just looks indistinguishable from swinging. All of that disturbed me but none of it was ultimately enough to completely destroy my faith. It created a lot of cognitive dissonance, which was uncomfortable. My coping strategy was to just try to forget it.

What ultimately destroyed my faith was the science vs religion debate. The creation story doesn't hold up, nor does the story of the flood, or the Tower of Babel, or miracles or healings or anything else that can be falsified, whether in the Bible or in LDS scripture. Taking it as allegory or mythical versions of real events only lasted for so long. The simplest explanation is that it's just made up. The Greek pagans knew more about the shape of the earth than did the ancient prophets of God, who were supposedly receiving revelation from God. Observation from pagans apparently Trump's revelation. The you start to see it more and more in a lot of areas.

The history of Yahweh and El also played a part. The earliest versions of the Hebrew deities bear more resemblance to the pantheon of the ancient Greeks than any of our concepts of God. It becomes obvious that God has changed so much because he's been remade in our own image so many times.

But mostly it was science that did it.

[_Buffalo]

In which case, what's the point in having prophets and apostles if all they give is fallible opinion or else simply reiterate old doctrines?

Spiritual guidance and strength when needed. Someone needs to direct the interests of the Church and Corporation.

That puts prophets down at the level of any other church leader from any other denomination - pastors and bishops etc.

[_Buffalo]

...I told them that a prophet is a prophet only when he was acting as such" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:265)

This little get out of jail free card has been used so frequently by apologist that the word "prophet" as it applies to LDS theology has lost all meaning.

[_moksha]

This quote from the Salt Lake City Weekly seemed to be relevant to this thread:

In this way, obedience to authority became the flip side of prophecy, visions and speaking in tongues. This is the razor’s edge of Mormonism. On the one hand, you are supposed to seek the truth by having direct mystical experiences with spirits and supernatural forces, while at the same time blindly following orders coming down through a social bureaucracy. Many, especially in the early days, didn’t like these lines of authority and control and chose to contact the spirit world directly.

In 1909, the sixth president of the church, Joseph Fielding Smith, wrote:

"There never was a time, perhaps, when there were more false prophets than there are today ... We get letters from them, and commands and threats from them, and admonitions and warnings and revelations from them, nearly every day. ... some calling themselves “deliverers of Israel,” some calling themselves “the one mighty and strong, who is to deliver Israel out of bondage.”... We have these letters —those that we have not destroyed—stacked up almost by the cord. Some of these false prophets, these men to “deliver Israel,” and these foolish, unwise, unstable creatures, led about by every wind of doctrine have risen right in our own midst." (LDS Conference Report, October 1909, p. 9)

http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-12741-the-one-mighty-and-strong.html

[_Called2Serve]

When we hear something from the Prophet or other church leader, we need to do our part and pray and ask for spiritual confirmation of what was said. I would guess that most members do this. It just so happens that the Prophet and other church leaders are providing good counsel and people are obeying.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

When we hear something from the Prophet or other church leader, we need to do our part and pray and ask for spiritual confirmation of what was said. I would guess that most members do this. It just so happens that the Prophet and other church leaders are providing good counsel and people are obeying.

Hey C2S, what if a member prays about said leadership counsel and gets a feeling that opposes the majority?

Is the member wrong?
Being tricked by Satan?

Or is God just dickin with him?

[_Called2Serve]

When we hear something from the Prophet or other church leader, we need to do our part and pray and ask for spiritual confirmation of what was said. I would guess that most members do this. It just so happens that the Prophet and other church leaders are providing good counsel and people are obeying.

Hey C2S, what if a member prays about said leadership counsel and gets a feeling that opposes the majority?

Is the member wrong?
Being tricked by Satan?

He might not be wrong!! The other leadership could be wrong. He should ask that the matters to be further prayed and fasted on. Chances are if he has received revelation and the others have not, even if they are in the majority, that the majority have not done their part and received revelation in the matter. Can Satan trick him? Only if he did not put forth a true desire to receive revelation on the matter.

[_rytmormon]

I am a member of LDS church and yes, we are taught of that principle. We believe that church leaders are called of God through his assigned people. Thus, they are working under his direction.

[_moksha]

Thanks for posting Rytmormon.