Restoration Best Evidence of Apostasy?

[_Aristotle Smith]

You've forgotten David W. Patten, who, it is true, died in 1838 -- but died in full fellowship and was properly replaced.

That's seven of the Twelve, which is a clear majority.

And the case of Orson Hyde is somewhat ambiguous, so one could figure it as seven of eleven, or even as 7.5 of twelve.

Any way you look at it, a clear majority.

And, remember, it was your claim ("the majority of the quorum of the 12 left the church") to which I was responding -- a claim that is manifestly untrue (unless you want to declare that David Patten "left the church" by dying).

Thank you for your corrections.

[_Tad]

I submit that the following could be shown as evidence:

Mark 16:17-18

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Doctrine & Covenants 35:9

And whoso shall ask it in my name in faith, they shall cast out devils; they shall heal the sick; they shall cause the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak, and the lame to walk.

Mormon 9:24

And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

Warnings about sign-seeking aside, it says pretty clearly in multiple places that these kinds of signs should be happening. To me, these should be the real evidences of the Restoration that should be plainly visible so that people can know who the true disciples/apostles are.

[_basilII]

I submit that the following could be shown as evidence:

Mark 16:17-18

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Doctrine & Covenants 35:9

And whoso shall ask it in my name in faith, they shall cast out devils; they shall heal the sick; they shall cause the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak, and the lame to walk.

Mormon 9:24

And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

Warnings about sign-seeking aside, it says pretty clearly in multiple places that these kinds of signs should be happening. To me, these should be the real evidences of the Restoration that should be plainly visible so that people can know who the true disciples/apostles are.

Speaking in tongues and faith healings? Pentecostals claim to see this happening all the time in their churches

Casting out devils and miracles in general? sounds like Catholicism to me (ok, I've read 'The Rite' and 'The Song of Bernadette' this past year)

[_Themis]

I can understand the thinking that if there is a restoration that this would be evidence of an apostasy, but where is the evidence for a restoration?

[_Aristotle Smith]

I submit that the following could be shown as evidence:

Mark 16:17-18

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Doctrine & Covenants 35:9

And whoso shall ask it in my name in faith, they shall cast out devils; they shall heal the sick; they shall cause the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak, and the lame to walk.

Mormon 9:24

And these signs shall follow them that believe—in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover;

Warnings about sign-seeking aside, it says pretty clearly in multiple places that these kinds of signs should be happening. To me, these should be the real evidences of the Restoration that should be plainly visible so that people can know who the true disciples/apostles are.

Tad,

Mark 16:9-20 is not in the original manuscripts for the gospel of Mark, this is a fact nearly universally acknowledged by all textual critics. Thus to argue that Mark 16:17-18 provides evidence for what takes place in a true church of Jesus Christ is not valid.

To then cite Mormon 9 just compounds the problem. Mormon 9 not only quotes a text which it shouldn't have access to (since it was half way around the world), it also quotes a text which wasn't part of the original manuscripts (half way around the world).

[_Tad]

I can understand the thinking that if there is a restoration that this would be evidence of an apostasy, but where is the evidence for a restoration?

Dr. Peterson said above that he could not give that in his ~700 word Mormon Times article, but that it exists, independent of the "apostasy-restoration" circular argument:

The firmness of my belief in the Restoration doesn't deliver my reasoning in the article from vicious circularity. The fact that my belief in the Restoration rests on grounds outside the circle does.

[_Tad]

Mark 16:9-20 is not in the original manuscripts for the gospel of Mark, this is a fact nearly universally acknowledged by all textual critics. Thus to argue that Mark 16:17-18 provides evidence for what takes place in a true church of Jesus Christ is not valid.

To then cite Mormon 9 just compounds the problem. Mormon 9 not only quotes a text which it shouldn't have access to (since it was half way around the world), it also quotes a text which wasn't part of the original manuscripts (half way around the world).

Excellent points. Thanks for the catch.