First Vision Session at Sunstone

[_Dan Vogel]

Here is a link to my introduction to the First Vision session on 27 July 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqaYJ6mzy3M&feature=youtu.be

[_Fence Sitter]

Thanks Dan!

[_Tobin]

I don't read too much into Joseph Smith's various accounts since I experienced something similar in my own life. Even as I reflect on it (and have relayed it to others), my mind will emphasize and dwell on various details while putting other details into the background. When I relate the event, at various times I will bring into focus different things that are important to me over time. Much like any shocking event, the overall event is what is important to me. And I'm sure that was true of Joseph Smith as well (and we see it in other accounts as well - such as the contradictory details concerning Jesus's life as related in the Gospels themselves). And Joseph Smith often seems to me to be a big picture sort of person and careful attention to details isn't something he is particularly good at either.

Anyway, I don't think Mormons fully appreciate what the First Vision means. By making this claim, Joseph Smith sets the bar at what one should expect as a spiritual witness as to the truths of the gospel (or Mormonism if you'd rather). One should fully expect to have an experience with God and gain a personal witness of Jesus Christ. I'm afraid without this witness, the whole of the Mormon narrative and claims falls apart. It is very difficult to not view the whole thing as a hoax or a fraud without this confirmation and I believe that Mormons who settle for mere feelings in this matter are severely deluding themselves given the claims being made, especially by Joseph Smith himself.

[_jo1952]

I don't read too much into Joseph Smith's various accounts since I experienced something similar in my own life. Even as I reflect on it (and have relayed it to others), my mind will emphasize and dwell on various details while putting other details into the background. When I relate the event, at various times I will bring into focus different things that are important to me over time. Much like any shocking event, the overall event is what is important to me. And I'm sure that was true of Joseph Smith as well (and we see it in other accounts as well - such as the contradictory details concerning Jesus's life as related in the Gospels themselves). And Joseph Smith often seems to me to be a big picture sort of person and careful attention to details isn't something he is particularly good at either.

Anyway, I don't think Mormons fully appreciate what the First Vision means. By making this claim, Joseph Smith sets the bar at what one should expect as a spiritual witness as to the truths of the gospel (or Mormonism if you'd rather). One should fully expect to have an experience with God and gain a personal witness of Jesus Christ. I'm afraid without this witness, the whole of the Mormon narrative and claims falls apart. It is very difficult to not view the whole thing as a hoax or a fraud without this confirmation and I believe that Mormons who settle for mere feelings in this matter are severely deluding themselves given the claims being made, especially by Joseph Smith himself.

Hi Tobin!

I appreciate your comments very much. I have discovered over time that in general major events in my life are perceived by me with ever-evolving understanding. This is especially true in spiritual matters. It's similar to why every time we study scripture, we get something new we never saw before; we are at a different point in our journey every time we study. You know....precept upon precept, etc.

What is not necessary is to become concerned about what may at first appear to be a conflict once the Holy Ghost has born witness to your spirit any part of all Truth. In fact when discussing revealed spiritual Truth, I cannot help but point out that "time" is different in the spiritual realm than it is in the physical realm. It is very easy to get mixed up chronologically with respect to physical time when we discuss things we have experienced spiritually. When our minds and spirits are touched by the Spirit and the Kingdom of God becomes more clear to us, physicality becomes less important. Indeed, as layers of understanding are revealed to me, and I experience the wander of why I never "saw" this newly revealed part of Truth before, because it is so obvious to me now, I am hard pressed to remember exactly when it is that any particular part of Truth has been added to my spiritual knowledge. We ARE eternal beings; this should not surprise us at all.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

Hi Tobin!

I appreciate your comments very much. I have discovered over time that in general major events in my life are perceived by me with ever-evolving understanding. This is especially true in spiritual matters. It's similar to why every time we study scripture, we get something new we never saw before; we are at a different point in our journey every time we study. You know....precept upon precept, etc.

What is not necessary is to become concerned about what may at first appear to be a conflict once the Holy Ghost has born witness to your spirit any part of all Truth. In fact when discussing revealed spiritual Truth, I cannot help but point out that "time" is different in the spiritual realm than it is in the physical realm. It is very easy to get mixed up chronologically with respect to physical time when we discuss things we have experienced spiritually. When our minds and spirits are touched by the Spirit and the Kingdom of God becomes more clear to us, physicality becomes less important. Indeed, as layers of understanding are revealed to me, and I experience the wander of why I never "saw" this newly revealed part of Truth before, because it is so obvious to me now, I am hard pressed to remember exactly when it is that any particular part of Truth has been added to my spiritual knowledge. We ARE eternal beings; this should not surprise us at all.

Blessings,

jo

Thanks for your comments jo.

I think the confusion (and supposed contradiction) is because of how the Lord speaks. After God the Father introduces his son, Jesus Christ, and directs Joseph Smith to listen to him, then Jesus spoke for the entire time after that. That is happening despite the presence of God the Father and Holy Ghost as well. And that is what we should expect too since Jesus Christ is our intermediatory with the Father and speaks on the behalf of the Father to us. The fact Joseph Smith reported Jesus speaking as we would suppose the Father would should not come as much of a surprise at all. In fact, in the scriptures themselves - the use the term Elo, Elohim, Jehovah, and the spirit of the Lord is used interchangably when referring to the personages of God (the Father, Son and HG). Not matter the source, it is God speaking and communicating God's will. Mormons make a mistake when they identify God the Father as Elohim, the Son as Jehovah, and the HG as the spirit of God. This is not strictly true in the scriptures.

[_jo1952]

Thanks for your comments jo.

I think the confusion (and supposed contradiction) is because of how the Lord speaks. After God the Father introduces his son, Jesus Christ, and directs Joseph Smith to listen to him, then Jesus spoke for the entire time after that. That is happening despite the presence of God the Father and Holy Ghost as well. And that is what we should expect too since Jesus Christ is our intermediatory with the Father and speaks on the behalf of the Father to us. The fact Joseph Smith reported Jesus speaking as we would suppose the Father would should not come as much of a surprise at all. In fact, in the scriptures themselves - the use the term Elo, Elohim, Jehovah, and the spirit of the Lord is used interchangably when referring to the personages of God (the Father, Son and HG). Not matter the source, it is God speaking and communicating God's will. Mormons make a mistake when they identify God the Father as Elohim, the Son as Jehovah, and the HG as the spirit of God. This is not strictly true in the scriptures.

Hi Tobin!

Good points!

Blessings,

jo