Priesthood for women

[Guest]

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[Guest]

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[_madeleine]

Coming in late, just to say, "apostle" is being used/understood here as Mormons would.

Mary Magdalene (painting over there <------) is called in the Catholic churches (east, west and all rites) "the apostle to the apostle". Catholics make a distinction between Apostle and apostle. There are 12 Apostles, no more than that. There is no issue in Catholicism with calling a woman an apostle, as it means "one who is sent".

[_madeleine]

In regards to deaconess, my understanding is that the early church was culturally inclined to separation of men and women in worship. (Some Eastern rites still practice this separation.) Particularly in the instruction and initiation (baptism) of catechumens (converts), it was not culturally acceptable for a man to instruct a woman or to prepare a woman for baptism. Baptism was in the early church a rite that required the person to be undressed.

Diakona is the word being translated, which means minister. It is sometimes used in ancient Christian documents as synonymous with "widow", with surviving instructions proscribing that a widow/deaconess be at least 60 years old. As the Church spread, and cultures were Christianized, it came to a point where adult converts were fewer. The baptismal rite evolved to where it was no longer required that a person undress. The function a deaconess performed no longer existed. There are offices that a deacon will never fill, such as pastor, vicar, nuncio, Cardinal, Pope, etc. So saying it is possible a deaconess would fill duties (ministerial or administrative) of priest or bishop, is not a reality that exists for deacons, and so would not for a deaconess.

What is known is that the order of deaconess/widows did not have the authority to baptize, confirm or consecrate. Similar to deacons (in the current RCC church), a deacon cannot confirm or consecrate.

Beyond that, what does exist in all Catholic churches, is the understanding of the priesthood as being Christ's alone. Where a priest acts in the person of Christ, and doctrine that maintains a Bishop is Christ. While this can be understood as symbolic in nature, it is also understood in a mystical sense, where a priest/bishop is Christ in certain aspects and/or situations.

In addition, all Catholic churches doctrinally accept the priesthood of all believers. This means all the baptized share in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. We are all, by our baptism, made prophets and priests. A mother can say a prayer of blessing over her child as well as a father can. When we bless ourselves with Holy water as we enter/leave a church, it is a priesthood blessing that we are performing on ourselves (and children).

So, anyway, the maleness of clergy in a ministerial and sacramental role, is tied to the maleness of Jesus Christ. For myself, I am no more offended that a priest is male, than I am that Jesus is male. It is a non-issue for me in a Catholic context.

Administratively, as western culture has changed to include women in decision and leadership roles (at an administrative level), the same change is experienced in Catholicism. Women maintain many leadership roles in parishes and dioceses, that have no female comparison in Mormonism. There's still some way to go, particularly in the Vatican. I think it will continue to change, at an administrative level, but I can never see a time where a woman will receive Holy Orders.

[_Mary]

Thanks for the Catholics perspective Madeleine. Obviously I don't see the development of early Christianity as uniform. I suspect that there were many communities with different practices, separated by distance and cultural peculiarities. Division and difference was almost instant and started with the Apostles themselves. To me this is understandable as the followers tried to make sense of and work through what Jesus did say, how to interpret his words, and to push forward in areas where he remained silent.

For me, his attitude and practice towards women in the context of the time was nothing short of astounding. That should bring up warning bells to anyone who wants to insist on patriarchy.

[_Jutta]

It is generally regarded under religion scientists as well founded; that women like men had the same tasks in the early Church. The 12 apostles were ambassador God also nothing further than sent like the other apostles, that is also Junia and Mary Magdalene.
Like the LDS something like that the concept apostle understands, did not give it at that time!
And this could not already how in the LDS happen a boy be ordained to the apostle do at all.
From my researches:

Young, Brigham jun., "; born at the 18th Dec. 1836; 1845 of his father Brigham Young baptized; ordain to the seventy; at the 22nd Nov. 1855 of Brigham Young TO AN APOSTLE ORDAINED and at the 9th Okt. 1868 in the advice of the twelve apostles allowed and of Brigham Young used.
Young, John W.; born at the 1st Okt. 1844; at the 22nd Nov. 1855 of Brigham Young to an APOSTLE ordains but you never allowed in the advice of the twelve apostles ". (Church Chronology, arranged by Andrew Jenson, assisting church historian, Salt Lake City, 1899, p. xxvii)