What is the Miracle of Forgiveness? (revisited)

[_Jason Bourne]

I think what you are refering to is what is known as the Holy Spirit of Promise.

From Mormon Doctrine:

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Spirit promised the saints, or in other words the Holy Ghost. This name-title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost, that is, the power given him to ratify and approve the righteous acts of men so that those acts will be binding on earth and in heaven. "All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations," must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have "efficasy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." (D&C 132:7)........

Lets take an example. A couple can be married in the Temple, but the mariage is of no force unless the couple is living up to the promises made and the marriage is ratified by the company of the Holy Ghost so that he may seal the marriage.

The same can be said of Baptism.

That being said, there are those like you mentioned who are baptised while sinless and had no sins to remit at baptism. The promise of washing away sins extends beyond the waters of baptism. The covenant can be renewed in the partaking of the sacrament in righteousness or in righteous living and receiving the company of the Holy Ghost which sanctifies a person. (D&C 88:11-41)

One can be said to receive the miricle of forgiveness in the recognizing the company of the Holy Ghost as a confirmation that you are right with God in your actions. His company ratifies the covenants you have made and allows you to know that you are "going in the right direction" if you'll allow that expression.

Gaz

No Gaz, she is talknig about being Born of God, you know, like the Book of Mormon teachse in Mosaih 27 adn 28 and Alma 5....

[_Inconceivable]

I think you would have liked Elder Uchdorf's talk in the final session of conference yesterday.

yeah. My TBM wife and I agreed that this was one of about 3 talks we could both identify with this weekend (ad nausium ataboys and high fives about the round building that won't fit all the Mormons anymore). Talks 1 & 2 of session 1 Saturday were the other ones.



It still begs the question - an event of such paramount significance (being spiritually born of Christ) and so many just talk around it?

[_Gazelam]

I understand what your talking about. Being born of God.

Let me use a persoanl example. I was raised in the church, baptised at 8, went on a mission. But I would say that being around the Spirit all my life I never understood what it was, if that makes sence.

I was a year out on my mision when I had a need to really know if the church is true. It was then that I had a powerful witness of the Holy Ghost as a direct answer to my prayer. I would say that it was then that I was truly born of God. I then had a sure knowledge that Christ is my savior.

This same witness can come, and often does, to a person seekign to know if the church is true as an adult who is seeking to follow the guidance of Moronis promise. Whether or not it occurs to a lifetime member who is finally grasping what they have had all their life, or happening to a new convert who receives an answer to their prayer, the ratifying effect of the Holy Ghost is that second baptism that seals the covenant and makes one a child of Christ.

Born again if you will.

[_Inconceivable]

I understand what your talking about. Being born of God.

Let me use a persoanl example. I was raised in the church, baptised at 8, went on a mission. But I would say that being around the Spirit all my life I never understood what it was, if that makes sence..

perfect'ish sense. Been there.

I was a year out on my mision when I had a need to really know if the church is true. It was then that I had a powerful witness of the Holy Ghost as a direct answer to my prayer. I would say that it was then that I was truly born of God. I then had a sure knowledge that Christ is my savior.

Mormons assume that satan knows the church is true. I might point out that Mormons believe satan was spiritually born of God - literally (and Jesus too). Mormons believe that you, as well as everyone else were spiritually born of God - a very long time ago. I am told by some that God and Jesus look alike, but are you sure who your father is? How does this give you a sure knowledge that Jesus is your Savior?

I know what you were trying to say, but remember when you were first married and you accidently called your wife one of your old girl friend's names by mistake? How did she feel about that and how connected did she think you were to her after you said it? How right was she?

This same witness can come, and often does, to a person seekign to know if the church is true as an adult who is seeking to follow the guidance of Moronis promise. Whether or not it occurs to a lifetime member who is finally grasping what they have had all their life, or happening to a new convert who receives an answer to their prayer, the ratifying effect of the Holy Ghost is that second baptism that seals the covenant and makes one a child of Christ.

Born again if you will

I am speaking of the miracle of forgiveness - to sing the song of redeeming love. Knowing the truth of a particular so called "principle of the Gospel", does not necessarily mean one is clean or forgiven. How is one the other? Even acting upon this "knowledge" is not forgiveness, it is repentance.

[_Pokatator]

The "Miracle of Forgiveness", wow, I'm not into burning books but if I were to start I think I would start with that one. There is no forgiveness in there. It is one continuous eternal round of, "Pray, Pay and Obey" then you are forgiven, so says the book.

But what if I don't feel forgiven? Then, "Pray, Pay and Obey" until you do.

How will I know when I am forgiven? When you have "Prayed, Paid and Obeyed" enough.

How can I tell when enough is enough? Just keep "Praying, Praying and Obeying".

Forgiveness doesn't exisit in the book or in the church. Have you ever heard, "Your sins are forgiven" in a Mormon church?

[_Gazelam]

I think that unless God tells you in this life that you are forgiven, you're pretty much waiting for the day of judgement. Theres an old saying that your testimony is not sealed until you are dead. That is to say that it is your life that bears witness to what you believed, not what you claimed.

The witness of the spirit will allow you to know that you are on the right path, and that Christ will forgive your sins if you continue to keep and uphold your covenants. That bears teastimony to the miracle of forgiveness, that Christ does indeed forgive sins and can present you clean to the Father.

[_Inconceivable]

I think that unless God tells you in this life that you are forgiven, you're pretty much waiting for the day of judgement. Theres an old saying that your testimony is not sealed until you are dead. That is to say that it is your life that bears witness to what you believed, not what you claimed.

The witness of the spirit will allow you to know that you are on the right path, and that Christ will forgive your sins if you continue to keep and uphold your covenants. That bears teastimony to the miracle of forgiveness, that Christ does indeed forgive sins and can present you clean to the Father.

Gaz, I'm quite familiar with everything you've quoted. No offence, cause I think you're probably a pretty nice guy. I do need to tell you that if I really wanted that perspective the last few days I could have just reminded myself of what I "knew" to be true only a short time ago. I had actually been anticipating that others that have been through what I am going through might share their thoughts with me.

But please understand, I bear you my testimony that I know that Joseph Smith was a man of deceipt and contempt for that which I've held sacred all of my life, and if God's true nature is that of a truthful and ethical being, Joseph could not have been His prophet. With the evidence presented to me these past few years, I can honestly say I am unclear about a great many things - except that Joseph was a liar - and perhaps even God is, because I've felt everything you have - perhaps more.

I hope that one day, I might have a valid and truthful surety of my future and those whom I love. My desire is that perhaps someday I may be able to sift through the deceipt and discover that somehow God is truly loving, forgiving and honest and did not have His hand in the duplicitous charactor of the man I once thought to be my hero and one I would have gladly died for. But if He isn't. Maybe that's just life.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi ..conceivable, i hope you don't mind my shortening your name? i do so respectfully sensing your need. I've read all of the posts, and paid particular attention to your responses. Very 'conceivable'...

Let me preface: THE church, doesn't have to be true to be good--in some/few/many ways... As you have experienced and suggested indoctrination is THE base of Mormonism, as it is of most religions... So be it. Very unfortunate!

The Book of Mormon surely has some "words-to-live-by". However, it's overall message is very defeatist--evil wins. How many LDS appreciate, or agree with, that i really don't know. Probably only those who have moved on, or can rationalize and balance LDSism within their personal comfort zone...

Southwest Kimbal's book, when read by a doctrinairian has a different impact than when read by a realist with a different reference frame... As for "foregiveness":

THE miracle of it all is the fact that it lies outside the confines of religion, Mormonism et al! Amidst its good stuff religion, as humanity has experienced it since day-one, has certainly left a lot of suffering in its wake--few exceptions--because it was based on ignorance of the workings of the Universe and the human psyche that lives within it...

When a religion indoctrinated person makes a "mistake" it is too often labeled a "sin" and requres penance of sorts, generally speaking. When a nonindoctrinated person makes the same "mistake" it is a 'light-bulb-moment', not a 'black-ball-moment', get the difference? They simply put it behind and move on. No shame, no guilt, no penance. "...'mistake' no more..." (Sound familiar :-)

The irony is, so much of what is passed to us as Christianity, is more anti-Christ than pro-Christ...

From your last post:

I hope that one day, I might have a valid and truthful surety of my future and those whom I love. My desire is that perhaps someday I may be able to sift through the deceipt and discover that somehow God is truly loving, forgiving and honest and did not have His hand in the duplicitous charactor of the man I once thought to be my hero and one I would have gladly died for. But if He isn't. Maybe that's just life.

My personal findings indicate to me there have been, and are, a lot of well intended folks--aren't most?--who have presented THEIR 'revelations' to the public.

All, generally speaking, worthy of consideration. Some have moved humanitity to our present state of elightenment, awareness, and conscience. Others have stood in the way, resisted, and indeed sabotaged the forward movement of humanity to live "justly" as encouraged by Jesus... As i understand his teachings...

"God" is neutral, no respector of persons, is not influenced by rituals or oaths; we live in a Universe of "order" in which we can depend on the law of "cause-&-effect"; in all probability, so to speak.

And, "...THAT's just life," i respectfully suggest. When one gets it sorted out: IT'S WONDERFUL!!

Stick with it Bro! Warm regards, Roger

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks Roger,

Maybe I can shorten your handle to "no platitudes". That is refreshing breath of fresh air regardless of whether what you have said is true. Now I have something to think about today at work and it makes my day.

I have a friend that is a pastor of 17 years that became disallusioned the last few. The crux of the last conversation we had was his belief that it is "Christ + nothing". In other words, the words of Christ and no fluff - none of the culture or added structure churches have all injected. No catachisms, hymns, passing the plate, disputations, a white shirt or a goofy robe. Just becoming born again in Christ and living in his spirit. He makes what he is sharing believable because of his amazingly peaceable walk. He doesn't speculate about stupid things. It's just him and WWJD. I've worked for a few of his long time friends and they are very much the same.

[_Jason Bourne]

No, not really. The Holy Ghost has lots of jobs and perhaps this was one of them. I'm being specific here.

Read Enos. His guilt left him. His "experience" was a specific moment in time. His heart changed as well as his awareness of righteous intents and desires - he prayed for his friends and loved ones to experience the same feeling, then he extended the request even to his enemies.

What I have asked about is, for example: Gaz, (or anyone else out there) have you had this experience of the miracle of forgiveness? Like this one?

The Book of Mormon is clearl. There is an event, or series that marks us, being Born of God, Born Again, etc. It is not automatic on baptims though for some the two may happen at the same time. It is a mighty change, a life altering experience where one knows they are justified before God and heirs of salvation, children of God and Christ. Most Mormons miss that this is an intergral part of our faith and focus instead on all the ordinances and checklists we seem to like to make.