moksha wrote:Wasn't the Urim and Thummim something from the Torah that got appended to the First Vision story at a later date? Weren't they just a couple of stones with the letters for Yes and No scribbled on the front and back and attached to a breastplate? I can see the yes and no being handy in decision making where all other things are equal, such as whether to watch a Pauly Shore movie or burn your yourself, however, when it came to sheer translational ability could they really hold a candle to the power of the Seer Stones?
The Urim and Thummim are seer stones, set in a breastplate. They were called "spectacles" by some witnesses i Joseph's time. And they were described as being used as eyeglasses. In Joseph's case, they didn't fit. They didn't have words etched on them. With them, seer stones, a seer could receive many different types of scenes through them.
Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?
The Church has been very frank about the seer stone's use, though the product of the translation of the Book of Mormon is usually given much more attention that the process. It would be strange to try to hide something by having an apostle talk about it, and then send the account to every LDS home in the official magazine!
In the July Ensign 1993, Elder Nelson quotes this from something David Whitmer had written.
Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.(David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)
I also recall seeing, in the Ensign, a drawing of Joseph Smith with his face in a hat. It wasn't the one you have posted, however.
So I read this, and I think it made me dumber. I could feel IQ points dropping to the floor and shriveling up.
It amazes me that the ridiculous use of a rock for "revelation" is so completely rationalized in a way to try to make it seem so logical. Training wheels for receiving revelation? Really??
(Sorry if this isn't celestial enough - I toned it down best I could.)
Why don't people have to learn how to do something they have never done before? That is the human experience.
If the church IS NOT HIDING the recorded version of how the plates were translated(hat trick) why are the children being shown the fallacious image of Joseph and his scribe sitting at a table while Joseph merely reads the plates?
I'd expect the kids to come home from primary with little seer stones and telling their parents how Joseph REALLY translated the plates and according to the fairwiki, is how he decided to marry Emma!
moksha wrote:Wasn't the Urim and Thummim something from the Torah that got appended to the First Vision story at a later date? Weren't they just a couple of stones with the letters for Yes and No scribbled on the front and back and attached to a breastplate? I can see the yes and no being handy in decision making where all other things are equal, such as whether to watch a Pauly Shore movie or burn your yourself, however, when it came to sheer translational ability could they really hold a candle to the power of the Seer Stones?
The Urim and Thummim are seer stones, set in a breastplate. They were called "spectacles" by some witnesses I Joseph's time. And they were described as being used as eyeglasses. In Joseph's case, they didn't fit. They didn't have words etched on them. With them, seer stones, a seer could receive many different types of scenes through them.
I have to admit that I got my description from Jewish and Christian Internet sources when I was trying to figure out exactly what an Urim and Thummin was supposed to be. Should have went to the Mormon source instead apparently. Those other religious scholars should have known that the U & T were ill-fitting spectacles if they had the fullness, so to speak.
by the way, I had some spectacles when I was younger that had plastic eyeballs attached to the rims via little slinkie-like springs. Although they fit, they could not hold a candle to Seer Stones.
moksha wrote:Wasn't the Urim and Thummim something from the Torah that got appended to the First Vision story at a later date? Weren't they just a couple of stones with the letters for Yes and No scribbled on the front and back and attached to a breastplate? I can see the yes and no being handy in decision making where all other things are equal, such as whether to watch a Pauly Shore movie or burn your yourself, however, when it came to sheer translational ability could they really hold a candle to the power of the Seer Stones?
The Urim and Thummim are seer stones, set in a breastplate. They were called "spectacles" by some witnesses I Joseph's time. And they were described as being used as eyeglasses. In Joseph's case, they didn't fit. They didn't have words etched on them. With them, seer stones, a seer could receive many different types of scenes through them.
I have to admit that I got my description from Jewish and Christian Internet sources when I was trying to figure out exactly what an Urim and Thummin was supposed to be. Should have went to the Mormon source instead apparently. Those other religious scholars should have known that the U & T were ill-fitting spectacles if they had the fullness, so to speak.
by the way, I had some spectacles when I was younger that had plastic eyeballs attached to the rims via little slinkie-like springs. Although they fit, they could not hold a candle to Seer Stones.
I want to see a primary program where all of the kids are wearing those!
Little Bobby tells his mommy what they did in primary:
So I read this, and I think it made me dumber. I could feel IQ points dropping to the floor and shriveling up.
It amazes me that the ridiculous use of a rock for "revelation" is so completely rationalized in a way to try to make it seem so logical. Training wheels for receiving revelation? Really??
(Sorry if this isn't celestial enough - I toned it down best I could.)
Why don't people have to learn how to do something they have never done before? That is the human experience.
And who has had to do that before or since? Did SWK need to pull out a seer stone and practice receiving revelation before 1978? Did GBH have to dig a well to find a stone before he issued the proclamation on the family? Learning to receive revelation by using a stone seems to make about as much sense as learning to drive a car by eating an apple.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
