immaculate conception (richard)

[_marg]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

[_Jersey Girl]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

Put yer hand down, woman. It's about Mary being conceived without sin. The Immaculate Conception IS Mary.

No applause please.

[_JAK]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

marg stated:

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

JAK:
Was not Mary declared “without sin” by the RCC? I agree with marg’s point – provided we have some consensus on the meaning of “conception.” You are regarding this as a miracle, are you not (from a doctrinal point of view)?

And for Richard, what source other than the Roman Catholic Church can speak for the RCC?

I’m not defending a dogma, Richard. The question is: What is the Roman Catholic Dogma?

Thus far, no one has attempted refutation that there were “two miracles” according the RCC. That was Bishop Sheen's statement (1985 World Book).

Of course, we can find various Protestants who would disagree with RCC dogma. We can find other religions which disagree with both RCC dogma as well as Protestant doctrines.

As Richard pointed out, there are several biblical scripts used in the construction of doctrine here.

As a point of interest, the 2007 library edition of the same encyclopedia (World Book), has a different author. That article on “Immaculate Conception” uses slightly different language.

I’m not suggesting that the RCC has shifted its position. I doubt it has. But, articles about denominations in encyclopedias are generally approved by some authority of that denomination.

I'll see what I can find on the author of the current statement in that same source.

It seems easy to establish ambiguity of doctrines among the various divisions of Christianity

JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

marg stated:

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

JAK:
Was not Mary declared “without sin” by the RCC? I agree with marg’s point – provided we have some consensus on the meaning of “conception.” You are regarding this as a miracle, are you not (from a doctrinal point of view)?

And for Richard, what source other than the Roman Catholic Church can speak for the RCC?

I’m not defending a dogma, Richard. The question is: What is the Roman Catholic Dogma?

Thus far, no one has attempted refutation that there were “two miracles” according the RCC. That was Bishop Sheen's statement (1985 World Book).

Of course, we can find various Protestants who would disagree with RCC dogma. We can find other religions which disagree with both RCC dogma as well as Protestant doctrines.

As Richard pointed out, there are several biblical scripts used in the construction of doctrine here.

As a point of interest, the 2007 library edition of the same encyclopedia (World Book), has a different author. That article on “Immaculate Conception” uses slightly different language.

I’m not suggesting that the RCC has shifted its position. I doubt it has. But, articles about denominations in encyclopedias are generally approved by some authority of that denomination.

I'll see what I can find on the author of the current statement in that same source.

It seems easy to establish ambiguity of doctrines among the various divisions of Christianity

JAK

The question is how does the doctrine of Immaculate Conception support the following claim that you made:

According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

[_JAK]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

Put yer hand down, woman. It's about Mary being conceived without sin. The Immaculate Conception IS Mary.

No applause please.

And the second miracle is described in Luke 1: as I previously quoted the related scripts (as some doctrines claim).

JAK

[_Jersey Girl]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

Put yer hand down, woman. It's about Mary being conceived without sin. The Immaculate Conception IS Mary.

No applause please.

And the second miracle is described in Luke 1: as I previously quoted the related scripts (as some doctrines claim).

JAK

And what has the second miracle got to do with the fact that this:

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Is in error?

[_JAK]

A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

marg stated:

hand in the air..can I answer, can I answer...pleeeeeeeeese

The "immaculate conception" says nothing about the parents it is only about being conceived without sin.

JAK:
Was not Mary declared “without sin” by the RCC? I agree with marg’s point – provided we have some consensus on the meaning of “conception.” You are regarding this as a miracle, are you not (from a doctrinal point of view)?

And for Richard, what source other than the Roman Catholic Church can speak for the RCC?

I’m not defending a dogma, Richard. The question is: What is the Roman Catholic Dogma?

Thus far, no one has attempted refutation that there were “two miracles” according the RCC. That was Bishop Sheen's statement (1985 World Book).

Of course, we can find various Protestants who would disagree with RCC dogma. We can find other religions which disagree with both RCC dogma as well as Protestant doctrines.

As Richard pointed out, there are several biblical scripts used in the construction of doctrine here.

As a point of interest, the 2007 library edition of the same encyclopedia (World Book), has a different author. That article on “Immaculate Conception” uses slightly different language.

I’m not suggesting that the RCC has shifted its position. I doubt it has. But, articles about denominations in encyclopedias are generally approved by some authority of that denomination.

I'll see what I can find on the author of the current statement in that same source.

It seems easy to establish ambiguity of doctrines among the various divisions of Christianity

JAK

The question is how does the doctrine of Immaculate Conception support the following claim that you made:

According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Jersey Girl asked:
“The question is how does the doctrine of Immaculate Conception support the following claim that you made:”

Luke 1:34-38

1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

Just a few verses earlier (1:17-20), Zacharias is struck dumb for doubting his wife's angel-assisted pregnancy. Why wasn't Mary punished for her disbelief?

Was Joseph the father of Jesus?

1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
"With God nothing shall be impossible."

Can God do anything?

1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

==

In bold was specific script used by the RCC to claim the second miracle.

JAK

[_marg]

Put yer hand down, woman. It's about Mary being conceived without sin. The Immaculate Conception IS Mary.

No applause please.

Darn, I'm glad this wasn't a bet for money.

[_JAK]

That other biblical scripts are used to trace Jesus through Joseph serves to demonstrate ambiguity of Christian doctrines.

Had the “editors” of doctrine had modern tools of assurance against contradictory language, they still might have been unsuccessful on consistency. But, they might have been better.

When we keep in mind all the many translations and from language to language and from story-telling before any doctrines were formalized, all contribute to the multiple interpretations in various Christian denominations, sects, and cults which can be identified today.

JAK

[_richardMdBorn]

I asked a very simple question.

JAK A. According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

Richard Evidence please for this assertion. Where is this implicit or explicit in the RC teaching of immaculate conception. And please DO NOT use RC evidence for virgin birth in your support for this.

JAK answered with texts which support the virgin birth (the very thing I ASKED HIM NOT TO DO.)

Luke 1:34-38

1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

Just a few verses earlier (1:17-20), Zacharias is struck dumb for doubting his wife's angel-assisted pregnancy. Why wasn't Mary punished for her disbelief?

Was Joseph the father of Jesus?

1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
"With God nothing shall be impossible."

Can God do anything?

1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

==

In bold was specific script used by the RCC to claim the second miracle.

JAK

One last time: JAK support from an RC text your statement that

According to the doctrine of “Immaculate Conception” (Roman Catholic), Joseph was not the father of the claimed “Messiah,” Jesus.

.
And support it from an assertion of the immaculate conception, NOT another doctrine like the virgin birth.