Scripture study.

[_Gazelam]

Inc.,

when the Lamanites (the blacks) lay seige on their city.

Its really more of a dark tan...

[_Inconceivable]

...... And those six lessons were bald faced lies.

.........

Would you like to expand?

1) (precurser lesson) Joseph and Hyrum were commanded by God to flee Nauvoo, which they did. Joseph promised in the name of the lord to his sheeple that if he and Hyrum were gone, Nauvoo would not be destroyed, but be left alone. They were called cowards so J & H disobeyed God and returned. They later died in a gunfight a few weeks later.

2) Plans were made for the Mormons to leave Nauvoo. Brigham Young commanded the flock not to join his forward party to the great basin. They were to tarry and prepare for the journey and leave in the spring. He and the apostles and others would prepare the way (planting seeds etc). The people disobeyed. They abandoned their warm homes and destroyed the real estate market for those that obeyed. They came across a frozen Mississippi, encroached upon Young's camp, and within a week had consumed all of their food. Hundreds died because of their unfaithfulness to the living prophet. The people of Nauvoo were not in any immediate danger of mobs. The temple was not burned until a year later - not how it is depicted in the famous painting of the great exodus from Nauvoo that is now out of circulation.

3) The pioneers were unfaithful. They did not listen to the prophet, they feared man, they did not prepare, and then they died. My ancestors too, by the way.

The first pioneers ought to be pittied. There is so much to be learned by their horrific mistakes.

This full account can be found in the "History of the Church" by BH Roberts.

4) Nauvoo was safe enough for Smith's only legal wife, their children and his mother to remain in Nauvoo to the end of their days.

5) The infamous handcart treks were the most disasterous endevours sanctioned by a living prophet. They were wicked stupid.

Even if you are a TBM as I believed I was at the time, the whitewash was nothing but deliberate ancestor worship.

[_JonasS]

...... And those six lessons were bald faced lies.

.........

Would you like to expand?

1) (precurser lesson) Joseph and Hyrum were commanded by God to flee Nauvoo, which they did. Joseph promised in the name of the lord to his sheeple that if he and Hyrum were gone, Nauvoo would not be destroyed, but be left alone. They were called cowards so J & H disobeyed God and returned. They later died in a gunfight a few weeks later.

I just watched a video on this, found it interesting.

2) Plans were made for the Mormons to leave Nauvoo. Brigham Young commanded the flock not to join his forward party to the great basin. They were to tarry and prepare for the journey and leave in the spring. He and the apostles and others would prepare the way (planting seeds etc). The people disobeyed. They abandoned their warm homes and destroyed the real estate market for those that obeyed. They came across a frozen Mississippi, encroached upon Young's camp, and within a week had consumed all of their food. Hundreds died because of their unfaithfulness to the living prophet. The people of Nauvoo were not in any immediate danger of mobs. The temple was not burned until a year later - not how it is depicted in the famous painting of the great exodus from Nauvoo that is now out of circulation.

I found it interesting that the temple was ordered to be burned down as they couldn't sell it.

3) The pioneers were unfaithful. They did not listen to the prophet, they feared man, they did not prepare, and then they died. My ancestors too, by the way.

The first pioneers ought to be pittied. There is so much to be learned by their horrific mistakes.

This full account can be found in the "History of the Church" by BH Roberts.

4) Nauvoo was safe enough for Smith's only legal wife, their children and his mother to remain in Nauvoo to the end of their days.

5) The infamous handcart treks were the most disasterous endevours sanctioned by a living prophet. They were wicked stupid.

Even if you are a TBM as I believed I was at the time, the whitewash was nothing but deliberate ancestor worship.

This is not what I was expecting. I guess it is hard to have a discussion like we do in Sunday School when everyone has been used to arguing against the church for so long.

Joseph Smith

[_Inconceivable]

Inc.,

when the Lamanites (the blacks) lay seige on their city.

Its really more of a dark tan...

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.
For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as
they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the
Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 5:21)

Gaz, I could not find your "tan" reference in my Book of Mormon..

when you find it, let me know (even if you discover it written on the border in crayon).

[_JonasS]

There is another thread discussing that. To me a flint as a sandy colour. And the curse was not the colour of skin.

[_Gadianton]

Any bets on how long it will be before Jona loses touch with reality and sheds the show-them-the-error-of-their-ways friendly disagreement personna and goes straight into full-blown victim and lecture mode?

[Guest]

This is not what I was expecting. I guess it is hard to have a discussion like we do in Sunday School when everyone has been used to arguing against the church for so long.

Joseph Smith

First: I believe you to be a sock puppet of Imwashingmypirate. I've believed that since your first couple of posts.

Second: this probably isn't a very good place to have the kind of discussion you want. If you're desiring a Sunday School discussion, it's best to have it in Sunday School.

Third: the reference to flint in the verse from 2 Nephi isn't referring to skin color. It's referring to hardness. "...For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint..." It's describing the hardness of the hearts, not the color of skin, though, if it were referencing the color of skin, it would have been accurate, as most flint is dark. See Wiki, from whence comes this quote:

Flint (or flintstone) is a hard, sedimentary cryptocrystalline form of the mineral quartz,[1][2] categorized as a variety of chert. Flint is usually dark-grey, black, or deep brown in colour, and often has a waxy appearance. It occurs chiefly as nodules and masses in sedimentary rocks, such as chalks and limestones.

And fourth: "faith based" threads are now defunct.

I'm sure you'll have a good discussion in Sunday School. The discussion on this thread may not be what you were looking for, but it may prove interesting nevertheless, so I hope you can enjoy it for what it is.

KA

[_Inconceivable]

I just watched a video on this, found it interesting.

I found it interesting that the temple was ordered to be burned down as they couldn't sell it.

This is not what I was expecting. I guess it is hard to have a discussion like we do in Sunday School when everyone has been used to arguing against the church for so long.

Joseph Smith

Video?

The First Iowa Encampment

..The cold.. facilitated the exodus by enabling many to cross the river on the ice, it caused great suffering in the camps. Then, too, many left the city ill prepared for life in the wilderness in midwinter. In many cases their food supplies both for themselves and teams were exhausted in a few days, and they became a burden upon those who had proceeded with better judgment.
History of the Church Chapter LXXII page 38 (The following 3 pages go into much greater detail)

Page 41

.. the head camp had not made more than one hundred and fifty miles west of Nauvoo, when President Young and the rest of the apostles who had started with a year's provisions for themselves and families had fed it all out to their less provident brethren..

Page 58 Note:

The Western Movement Hindered By Determination of the People to be With the Apostles

The near approach to complaining on the part of the leader of the camps. referred to in note 3 of the text, was more in the nature of an explanation than of a complaint as to how the zeal and unpreparedness of some of the saints were hindering the progress of the general movement. President Young said: "When the removal westward was in contemplation at Nauvoo, had the brethren sumitted to our (the twelve apostles) counsel, and brought their teams and means and authorized me to do with them as the Spirit and wisdom of the Lord directed, then we could have fitted out a company of men, who were not encumbered with large families, and seent them over the mountains to put in crops and build houses, and the residue could have gathered , beginning with the priesthood, and the gathering continued from year to year, building and planting at the same time. Were matters to be so conducted, none would be found crying fo bread, or destitute of clothing; but all would be provided for as designed by the Almighty. But instead of taking this course the saints have crowded on us all the while, and have completely tied or hands by importuning and saying, 'Do not leave us behind. Wherever you go we want to go, and be with you;' and thus our hands and feet have been bound, which has caused our delay to the present time; and now hundreds at Nauvoo are continually praying and importuning with the Lord that they may overtake us, and be with us. And just so it is with the saints here. They are afraid to let us go on and leave them behind; forgetting that they have covenanted to help the poor away at the sacrifice of all their property"


The Temple was not ordered to be burned. The church accused a non-mormon man of arsen for starting the fire in the tower.




Wouldn't you rather discuss Mosiah 18-24?

[_Inconceivable]

And fourth: "faith based" threads are now defunct.

KA

I disagree.

Faith based threads are just under a great deal more scrutiny here than at Mormon Sunday School.

[_ludwigm]

The problem is, there's no way to measure if God is keeping his end of the bargain. Is the blessing because of keeping the covenant or because of chance?

Well, that's a question that you might ask if your were Richard Dawkins, but not if you were faithful member Harmony.
Is it not?

Does this mean that there are special questions which might not be asked by faithful members ?

I used to live 40+ years in socialism (You know, that is the LEFT_LEFTISM_LEFTIST thing You love) so I know it by practice.

The first step to the "thought police" is when one might not say certain things.
The second step when one might not ask the same.
The third step is George Orwell : 1984. The prohibition of some/many thought.

I suggest to read it.
There are too many parallels of "angsoc", the "existing socialism" and "Mormonism".
Not the base principles - FYI - but the handling of thinking, opinion, free will (one may call it agency), the way of working the system in general.