Obeying Church Leaders as a pervasive theme

[_zzyzx]

"Because us Mormons believe that the leaders of the Church are appointed and inspired by God. It's not a difficult concept."

This sounds nice but is foolish. Some of these Leaders in various places and capacities were criminals, child molesters and dirtbags before being 'appointed' to their callings. Do you really believe a God of conscience and truth instructs(in whatever way you choose to think of it) leadership that practices some of the perversions and criminal/dishonest activities we see these jerks do?

Like the Stake President in Cache Valley, Utah who is known to have followed women into the bathrooms and molested them... many times. This type of behavior is sick but he was still called to his office. Or those who cheat others in business? Those having affairs with members of the congretation?

Somehow I don't believe much of leadership is inspired at all. They may wish they were but if the Holy Ghost really came down and gave many of these jokers a 'burning in the bosom' they would drink some Pepto Bismol.

From Mark Hoffman to Feliz Urioste(the man who was sealed to its 'husband' in TheTemple) inspiration is sorely lacking in "Church Leaders".

And you really expect people to 'obey' idiots like this?

[_Joseph Antley]

And you really expect people to 'obey' idiots like this?

Believing that someone holds the position to receive inspiration over certain areas doesn't mean that they're always right. Thus the prophets have counseled us to pray about our instruction and receive confirmation for ourselves.

[_moksha]

Believing that someone holds the position to receive inspiration over certain areas doesn't mean that they're always right. Thus the prophets have counseled us to pray about our instruction and receive confirmation for ourselves.

Makes sense. I have wondered about this since hearing how one of the leaders was rude enough to chastise the pianist for playing a classical piece during the prelude. It was disturbing his conversation in the chapel. I suspect those who sat in the chapel were enjoying it as part of their prayerful meditation to get in a spiritual mood for the Sacrament and the leader's address. It would have taken a personality with an overinflated sense of importance and lack of humility to address the pianist in such a sharp way. However, I can see how such a defect could have occurred, since those whom he lead routinely stood up when he entered a room.

If a leader acts imperiously then how can they be spiritually inspired? Arrogance is not a holy virtue.

[_Dwight Frye]

Because us Mormons believe that the leaders of the Church are appointed and inspired by God.

Except when they're only speaking as men.

Which, according to what is accepted as 'official' in online discussions with LDS apologists, is pretty much all the time.

[_beefcalf]

Believing that someone holds the position to receive inspiration over certain areas doesn't mean that they're always right. Thus the prophets have counseled us to pray about our instruction and receive confirmation for ourselves.

If we are expected to confirm for ourselves that the directives given by our church leaders are correct, what is the purpose of having those leaders to begin with?

Isn't this much like the rigged Moroni's Promise... If you don't get the answer we expect you to get, you musta done it wrong...

[_Malcolm]

Total Obedience or Eternal Damnation. That's what chapel [Terrestrial content deleted] in the UK believe in. [Terrestrial content deleted] To The Prophet.

[MODERATOR NOTE: Please employ only Celestial content in the Celestial Forum. Thanks in advance.]

[Guest]

Because without obeying what you are told to do by Church leaders means that inspired enterprises like a Anti-banking safety society could possibly fail. Or the Temple in Jackson County, Missouri could be put on hold for some reason rather than built as commanded. Or that you could teach a lesson using the Statements of The Prophets from the pulpit in Conference only to find out the Statements of The Prophets from the pulpit in Conference aren't really Doctrine or Truth, like many of Brighams statements.

This is the most perverse teaching in The Church. It is the excuse used by Nazi/German soldiers and citizens to justify their actions and complicity in murdering their neighbors. It is taken to extremes by many LDS who believe in pure BS statements like 'follow your leaders even when you know it is wrong and you will be blessed for it'. This type of thinking produces Mountain Meadows Massacres, lying for political gain and cheating anyone and everyone 'for the Lord'.

The idea of a thinking membership has been thrown in the trash these days.

[_beefcalf]

First of all, welcome to the board, colbytownsend!

Now this (something I recently posted at an Amazon discussion forum):


The church teaches that you cannot go wrong by following the Prophet. President Marion G. Romney wrote this concerning Prophets of the Church:

"I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President
Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove
him home ... Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder
and said: `My boy, you always keep your eye on the President
of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is
wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with
a twinkle in his eye, he said, `But you don't need to worry. The
Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.' "
(Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Even President Wilford Woodruff made it clear:

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man
who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is
not in the program. It is not in the mind of God."
(The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212-13.)

Brigham Young stated that every word he said to his people should be considered as scripture.

In addition to teaching that Christ's Atonement wasn't quite good enough for *all* sins, that some sins must be atoned for by spilling the sinner's own blood, Brigham Young also taught that God is Adam. This teaching is referred to as the Adam-God theory (although I believe BY would adamantly insist that it is a doctrine). In in a letter to BYU professor Eugene England, who wrote to him asking about the Adam-God Doctrine, Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote back:

"...people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things
will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one
of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his
statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the
position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also
taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that
in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal
reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to
believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making
an election that will damn us." (Letter dated 19 February 1981)

The church wants its members to believe that the prophet will never lead you astray, yet we have McConkie writing in a letter that Brigham Young got it wrong when he preached that 'Adam is God', and that although Brigham Young was wrong, and taught a false doctrine, he is now living in the Celestial Kingdom, enjoying his reward. But in the next breath, McConkie states that if we members hearken to Brigham Young's words and believe him, that 'Adam is God', we will suffer eternal damnation.

So let's make this clear:

Even though Brigham Young taught an evil and false doctrine, he is basking in eternal glory in the Celestial Kingdom.
If you are foolish enough to listen to Brigham Young and believe what he taught, you will suffer eternal damnation and 'lose your soul'.

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colby, if you could supply some sort of reference for your conclusion as to why the Anti-Banking safety society failed, I would appreciate it. I have not heard about the embezzlement charge before and I would like to learn more.

Thanks! Again... welcome!

[_Joseph]

The anti-banking outfit was in violation of so many laws they deserved to fail.
Not only did Joseph prophesy it would be great... he never paid back any of the money he and followers made off with. He let others do any payback that was made.

Obey a crook and a liar? Might as well let your daughter date Ted Bundy.

[_Paracelsus]

...I told them that a prophet is a prophet only when he was acting as such" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:265)
_______________________________________________

Can you (you everybody, including colbytownsend) cite one case, when the (actual) prophet said "now, in this minute, at this place, I don't act as prophet" ?

Can you (you everybody, including colbytownsend) cite one case, when a simple member, or a bishop, or an apostle said "this is only his private opinion, I don't agree/follow/sustain it" ?

Aeons ago, somebody on MAD (ehm...) explained it. The spirit. Our solution is the spirit. The spirit answers. The spirit can say YES.
- "Yes, it is god's word, follow it."
The spirit never says NO. The spirit is so tricky, it has only the YES answer. If the spirit said no, we didn't pray enough.


The prophets (all of them) die. As other people, they do it. Our world works (is working / seems to work) this way. LONG AFTER these events, their revelations can be transformed to private opinion.