Earning Points for Huge Heavenly Rewards

[_moksha]

Hi Roger. Keep popping by when you can. Bring us some joy and perhaps a six pack of RC Cola.

[_Roger Morrison]

Nice to see, and hear from the jolly li'l Penguin!
RC Cola, is that caffeine-free? Gotta be!
Always enjoyed your congeniality! Not confrontational, nor defensive.
Just an honest display of integrity and compassion.
MDB, your Ward, Stake and community are privileged to have your association.
Thanks for being here.
Warmest regards,
Roger (HG)

[_ajax18]

I loved serving and contributing to LDSism for 30+ years.

Children may be simple, but they know boring when they experience it too. I was bored in Church as a child and I'm bored in Church when I go today. Roger you're clearly not saying it took you 30 years to get bored at the LDS church correct? :)

[_Roger Morrison]

I loved serving and contributing to LDSism for 30+ years.

Children may be simple, but they know boring when they experience it too. I was bored in Church as a child and I'm bored in Church when I go today. Roger you're clearly not saying it took you 30 years to get bored at the LDS church correct? :)

Good question, Ajax. Maybe, keep 'em busy, and well stroked, and they won't have time, or be inclined, to rebel (question). Also my needs at that stage of personal dysfunction were attended to. The first 20 years fed my ego and were, I think, quite theripeutic. (S?)

They were also years of study and learning. '78 - '79 at BYU Hawaii. Wonderful year! Walk to classes; worked on Campus Maintenance; met wonderful people; wife and two children spent the days at Bath Tub Beach, literally in our back yard, were other mothers brought their kids to play . . .

It was there that Mormonism really came into focus. Exec Sec for a great Bishop. But also exposed to the under-belly of LDS burocracy (S?) and authoritarian dominance. Being wrapped in the warmth of climate and Hawaiian culture could not hide the core disposition that was hidden in a small intimate Branch in Ontario. Then the large progressive Branch in Ottawa, where I had been BP, in a congregation of educated professionals and civil servants, opened a window of light onto what was taught and how it was assimilated by differing personal dispositions. Some times positively, other times tragically. . .

The conclusion: One size does not fit all. A truth that LDS executives have yet to learn.
Sooner or later a member might grow out of LDSism. A most natural thing to do, at their own speed. In this whole learning process, my wife and I have few regrets. Four of our five are happy out of Mormonism. The other is happy as a Mormon. Most important, we are all happy together! Great family gatherings! Just attended a Grand-daughter's wedding that was literally a BALL! Old & new friends meeting, greeting, funning, cheering, jeering, tearing and dancing where love and good spirits ruled the hours. . .

This satisfaction might not be so easily come by in Utah, and other places where LDSism is so long-time steeped in tradition and culture that stagnation suppresses any divergence from, "...That Old Tyme Religion that was good enough for Grand Pa......."

A long answer to your short question :-) Short answer: life is the best thing we have! Enjoy it wherever, or move! Ya know wadimsayin???

Warm regards, Roger M.

[_ajax18]

BYU-Hawaii was clearly the best year of my life. I wish I'd never left, but I'm not sure I could have the career I have now.

You say it fed your ego. I'm not sure I buy that. You don't strike me as that type. I've met many egomaniacs in LDS leadership in under 10 years starting with my first companion in the MTC. I guess the mission was the only place I really saw the underbelly and the ugly side of the Church. I firmly believe that the only reason many of my colleagues did anything at all was out of hope that they could soon be the leader and give orders to other people. While this did not surprise even as a naïve 19 year old, the fact that the adult leaders promoted this type of mindset and behavior did. I think that's where many young missionaries reevaluate their opinion of the Church or in other words, the people running it.

Back in the real world, at the local level, which seems to be where you served, I just saw hard working/unpaid clergy trying to keep the commandments. Most of them would have rather not been the bishop and would probably have laughed if you compared being bishop or even stake president to a promotion up the corporate ladder. I really believe most of them put forth the efforts they put forth with next life consequences in mind. They certainly knew that they would never be called to a high enough position to enjoy an improved earthly standard of living as a result of their church service. From the perspective of the natural man, they surely understood that the Church only made earth life more difficult. Would you have disagreed with me if I were talking to you 20 years ago? Obviously you understood then that Church service would only make your earthly life worse correct? I know my view might seem like an oversimplification. I was raised a chemical engineer originally. In chemical factories you have numerous complex processes going on that are beyond the scope of our understanding. So to understand it, you start simple and and try to nail down for sure, what went in and what came back out. Perhaps it is is so simple that even a child thinks that way, but I see it as a proper first step in evaluating any situation. Until a better explanation can account for this initial observation, I don't see it as any more advanced or definitive.

You talk about being happy as a Mormon. I had a similar argument with Selek. It's the first time I actually got an LDS to admit in print what he believed the true results of obedience to be. So if it is never going to make you happier, why do it? Guilt, shame, and being manipulated are really of no concern to me nor do I think they should be. And yet after a lengthy conversation with Selek, those were really the only reasons he had to make the sacrifices the church demands. It sure wasn't so you could be happy. That much he admitted.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Ajax, I'll interject in this.

BYU-Hawaii was clearly the best year of my life. I wish I'd never left, but I'm not sure I could have the career I have now. What years were you there? Live on campus? We lived across from the PCC. Walked from our back yard to the beach!!

You say it fed your ego. I'm not sure I buy that. You don't strike me as that type. That's past tense. I was 22 and soaked up validation, that small Branches are generous with. My wife and I were THE golden couple, LOL! Given positions and responsibilities that we put heart, soul (and tithing) into. I've met many egomaniacs in LDS leadership in under 10 years starting with my first companion in the MTC. I guess the mission was the only place I really saw the underbelly and the ugly side of the Church. At that time, 1956, we couldn't imagine an "ugly side" I firmly believe that the only reason many of my colleagues did anything at all was out of hope that they could soon be the leader and give orders to other people. We were motivated by the thought of the Celestial Kingdom--Temple Marriage--without really knowing anything, but that's what we should do. So we did in SL, 1958. This was our first glimpse into the ugly. Very weird experience! Back in the comforts of our small Branch the weird was soon displaced. While this did not surprise even as a naïve 19 year old, the fact that the adult leaders promoted this type of mindset and behavior did. I think that's where many young missionaries reevaluate their opinion of the Church or in other words, the people running it. Couldn't help but affect a thinking person. Not many in that age range do much thinking. They are conditioned to be unthinking- believers :-(

Back in the real world, at the local level, which seems to be where you served, I just saw hard working/unpaid clergy trying to keep the commandments.True. Most of them would have rather not been the bishopAgain unfortunately true. I found it hard to believe that they would do what they disliked! Not my nature. and would probably have laughed if you compared being bishop or even stake president to a promotion up the corporate ladder. I never looked at church service as a career path. I really believe most of them put forth the efforts they put forth with next life consequences in mind. Probably. I was/am too pragmatic to focus on Heaven. This life was what gave me/us satisfaction--cold never endorse Mick Jagger, except to boogie with the song :-)-- They certainly knew that they would never be called to a high enough position to enjoy an improved earthly standard of living as a result of their church service. Ignorant, off-the-street converts are a long way from the ambitions, and attitudes, of Utah's generational Mormons. From the perspective of the natural man, they surely understood that the Church only made earth life more difficult. Not our thought or experience. Would you have disagreed with me if I were talking to you 20 years ago? Definitely, disagree. Obviously you understood then that Church service would only make your earthly life worse correct? Not my understanding or belief. I/we would have jumped ship when "worse" entered our minds. Starting from THE bottom of life, there was only one way to go. And, according to tradition, only one way up: Hard work and ambition. Both of which we had the natural ability to apply. I know my view might seem like an oversimplification. Not really. You are simply expressing your experience and disposition I was raised a chemical engineer originally. In chemical factories you have numerous complex processes going on that are beyond the scope of our understanding. Seems the way of life? So to understand it, you start simple and and try to nail down for sure, what went in and what came back out. Is there any other way to success? Perhaps it is is so simple that even a child thinks that way, but I see it as a proper first step in evaluating any situation. Totally true! Unfortunately, most folks haven't learned the steps of the dance. So they sit on the side-lines as nonparticipants amusing themselves at structured sports events and in organized institutions that ask little but the ticket price... Until a better explanation can account for this initial observation, I don't see it as any more advanced or definitive. Not sure if I get your meaning?

You talk about being happy as a Mormon. I had a similar argument with Selek. It's the first time I actually got an LDS to admit in print what he believed the true results of obedience to be. As a chemist you should recognize that "obedience" to the laws of science produces new products and advances our evolution?? So if it is never going to make you happier, why do it? Great question! Possibly fear, ignorance, lack of confidence, conditioning, family, security are some things that inhibit being proactive in life... Guilt, shame, and being manipulated are really of no concern to me nor do I think they should be. Amen! :-) And yet after a lengthy conversation with Selek, those were really the only reasons he had to make the sacrifices the church demands. His choice. I don't know Selek. It sure wasn't so you could be happy. Maybe his happiness is trumped by the happiness of others?? Again his choice, and his disposition -- his nature & nurture at work. That much he admitted.

WOW! This will probably look a bit strange. Hope it serves some value??
People join LDSism and leave LDSism for their own reasons and purpose. So be it :-)

Warm regards,
Roger

[_moksha]

People join LDSism and leave LDSism for their own reasons and purpose.

Warm regards,
Roger

I doubt this could be otherwise for adult converts, unless one is abducted to the catacombs of Provo and the electrodes of the Convertanator are applied.

[_ajax18]

Well one thing about our experience seems very similar Roger. Being insulated in a small branch away from Utah gives you a very different perspective. In my case it was a much more positive perspective.

It amazes me how many TBMs state they could never live in Utah because they can't stand Mormons. Admittedly I've met Utah Mormons I thought very highly of and liked, but it's about the same percentage of Baptists I meet in the south who I think highly of and like.

But just out of curiosity Roger did you believe that the Church made your earth life happier as a TBM? Or did you just not believe happiness should be the objective?

[_Roger Morrison]

People join LDSism and leave LDSism for their own reasons and purpose.

Warm regards,
Roger

I doubt this could be otherwise for adult converts, unless one is abducted to the catacombs of Provo and the electrodes of the Convertanator are applied.

"Adult converts" are in a different league, when it comes to walking away from LDSism. Born-ins or kids of TBMs often have trouble escaping the "catacombs" of family & the "electrodes" applied by dysfunctional family & church members locked in the dogma of original-sin and heaven-hell.

I guess mental health and spiritual maturity ease the burdens when packing up. . .

Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

But just out of curiosity Roger did you believe that the Church made your earth life happier as a TBM? Or did you just not believe happiness should be the objective?

You do ask some probing questions. LOL!

OK, lets try for clarity :-) The church provided a sought after social setting of soberiety, that was important to us. Alcohol was a no-no in our future! We had experienced the negatives of alcohol abuse and didn't want our future family to do the same.
The Missionaries presented an image that we found inviting. Actually doctrine played little in our conversion. Truth is, generally speaking, like the sales person, buy their product!

Family-forever sounded nice. But we weren't discerning enough to understand, at the time, that "Family" does not include parents etc who are not Mormons. With maturity, that was the stone that shattered the glass bubble wherein we found safety from the cold-dark-world.

"...Church made life happy?" Life makes us happy! Church was simply a part of our happy life. Happiness did not depend on church. Our/my happiness came from doing the right things and enjoying the consequences. Is that difficult to comprehend?

Your last question seems some what disjointed... I assume happiness is a desired state of being for most people??? Some seem to find it easier than others. Often luck plays an obvious major role. A fact that Mormonism and other cults (meaning any religion that requires obedience to their rules to be a member-in-good-standing ;-) exploit. Manipulating people to try-harder, pay-more to find the elusive "Happiness!" that is suggested to come from membership in their group...

Personal question Ajax: Are you happy? What makes you happy when you are? Unhappy, if you ever are?

Warm regards, Roger M.