www.lds-awakening.information

[_The Nehor]

Okay, you are correct in stating that things are wrong. Great disturbances and siftings are going to take place both in the Church and out of the Church.

However, in everything else, that website and you are roughly 80-90% wrong.

[_just me]

j-bug:

*How can "equality" and "submission" be reconciled in a marriage?

*Could you please provide the reference for Joseph Smith stating that Adam was our God? I am very, very interested in seeing it.

*Why did God give conflicting commands to the Saints?
For example, ones that they had to break to practice polygamy:

D&C 58: 21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

D&C 42:22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

In response to your response to my comment. Wow. So, you also think the "talents" in the parable are people. Look. I really think you'd be better off applying all these parables to yourself and not thinking that they are talking about others.

Polygamy is not needed to take care of the widows and orphans. They were able to do it quite well in the Book of Mormon without resorting to polygamy. How is that? Amazing!
Marrying someone so that they will provide for you is basically prostitution. that is what you are outlining. A widow would have to prostitute herself in order for her children to be fed. That is not Celestial. That is disgusting!
How will the disabled be cared for in this Kingdom? Will they have to be married off as well?

In this most wonderful Kingdom will it be illegal for women to work? What about infertile men and women? Will they be allowed to marry? Work? What about intersex people? What about homosexuals? How will all these people be taken care of? Will people get raises according to how large their families are? Will being single be against the law? What is "full age" for a woman in the Kingdom---12, 14...?

Plural marriage will NOT maintain a woman's liberty. From what you describe it would be prostitution and slavery.

ETA: The math does not work for polygamy during the Millenium. The math doesn't even work for it today.

E

[_j-bug]

j-bug:

*How can "equality" and "submission" be reconciled in a marriage?

The same way I submit myself to Christ and by way of that become a joint-heir with Him in order to receive all that the Father hath. If I do not give myself in submission to Him then I have no part with Him. Thus, the Father will have no portion for me and I shall have no part of His Kingdom.

If women do not give themselves in submission to those men who have given themselves in submission to Christ then they shall not become joint-heirs with their husbands.

Jesus Christ gave all of us the perfect example by giving Himself in complete submission to the Father. None of us have any excuses.

*Could you please provide the reference for Joseph Smith stating that Adam was our God? I am very, very interested in seeing it.

As for a direct quote, I do not have such. The only direct quote for this doctrine comes from Brigham Young. But, through my research it is very clear that Brigham Young got this doctrine from Joseph Smith. Thus, I credit it to him as something he taught. Well, I admit I assume he taught it. What I do know for certain is that he knew it and I highly doubt Brigham Young would have figured it out on his own. I could see evidence on some occasions where Joseph Smith was edging toward teaching it but he gave up in exasperation because the people were not ready or willing to hear such things.

Of course the most obvious place it is presented is in the endowment ceremony if you consider Eloheim, Jehovah and Michael to be the three members of the Creation Godhead and you have two bits of reasoning capacity and catch the part about Michael becoming Adam.

*Why did God give conflicting commands to the Saints?
For example, ones that they had to break to practice polygamy:

D&C 58: 21 Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

It is not uncommon for people to have to choose between the lesser of two evils. I agree in a broad and general sense it is wisdom to stay within the laws of the land to the extent one can. I also agree there are times when breaking the laws of the land can be a lesser evil than conforming to them. If I had a child who needed emergency medical attention you are damn right I'm going to exceed the posted speed limits and I'll let the officer meet me in the hospital parking lot if he chooses to escort me.

D&C 42:22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

This is an excellent example in scripture supporting what I've said elsewhere that a man (and especially when he is married) has absolutely no business "being on the move". The marriage ceremony has the man _receiving_ his wife. That should be taken literally and explicitly.

In response to your response to my comment. Wow. So, you also think the "talents" in the parable are people. Look. I really think you'd be better off applying all these parables to yourself and not thinking that they are talking about others.

That parable applies to a man's stewardship and inheritance. Jesus was teaching the people by parable how the laws of heaven work. It is no stretch of anyone's imagination to apply this to the wives that are given to men.

Polygamy is not needed to take care of the widows and orphans. They were able to do it quite well in the Book of Mormon without resorting to polygamy. How is that? Amazing!

The removal of plural marriage from the Nephite culture was a curse to them and it plagued them horribly. They were constantly in a battle to maintain their liberties in the face of the 'benevolent" "robbers". It was eventually the robbers that proved the entire destruction of their civilization. If you look for the clues that their destruction was coming it is not a coincidence that it is prophesied of in connection with Jacob's chastisement of them when the practise was removed. See Jacob 2:33 and you will see the link.

Marrying someone so that they will provide for you is basically prostitution. that is what you are outlining. A widow would have to prostitute herself in order for her children to be fed. That is not Celestial. That is disgusting!

Your perspective of this is a rejection of Celestial Law and is shared by most LDS women. This is why the members of the church are being given the alternative, which is statism. It is not a coincidence that plural marriage being done away and Utah obtaining statehood were connected together.

The world would have the women clamor for the good men on a first come/first serve basis. Once a good man is married he is no longer an option for any other women to be joined to. This makes the women who lose their husband far more dependant upon the state. Some brave ones make a risky selection from the "scratch and dent" selection of men that remain but many choose to carry on alone with the state's help. What they receive from the state is essentially money, which money has been coercively absconded from society. Before long the state takes on a live and grow mentality of its own and it quickly learns that the more destitute people become the more readily people will further empower it. This is why the adversary hates and attacks plural marriage with a passion. It is his worst enemy. It isn't long before this mentality grows to monstorous proportions and everyone in mainstream society becomes dependant upon the state. The reason for this is it eventually figures out how to rob and plunder from every avenue available to feed and empower itself, including the creation of a fiat money system that depends directly on indebtedness to stay functional, which is a guaranteed time-bomb when everything has been collateralized to those who setup the scheme. These select few spoil the entire society and take it and spend it as their own for their own agenda. Your very person has been collateralized, in case you weren't aware. You have literally become chattel of the state and your destiny is directly tied to its destiny. How much longer do you see our statist society holding together? When it all comes crashing down, where are all single women and widows subsidized by the state going to end up? A good many are going to end up as sex slaves kept in cages for the chief thugs of the roving bands that are raping and pillaging what's left of a prideful and rebellious people who rejected God's Kingdom and God's Law. Cry to them about how disgusting God's way of doing things is and see how much they shall care. You suppose this is what God is going to do to you, to make you a prostitute for your housing and daily ration, so God must painfully watch as you go ahead and do it to yourself for slapping Him and His choice servants in the face when their only desire is to cherish you and love and care for you.

Christ put His most choice and faithful men in union with Him to stand in the place of a honorable husband to all of His daughters who stood in need, and not just for temporal things. Christ gave the Saints a Lord's Anointed Prophet to confirm His will in who women give themselves to so that she would know without doubt who she is with is Christ's will for her and that He will support her in that union.

Rather than fight alone with absconded subsidies on top of a meager salary and watch helplessly while her children are of necessity sent out into the world and corrupted by it, a woman could be received by a godly man (with her input on the matter as to who it is given due consideration) and have dear friend sister wives and have an environment where her children could be raised up in truth and light and she wouldn't be needing absconded subsidies and she wouldn't have to go out into Babylon as a slave wage earner for a pittance. All of her time could be devoted to the rearing of her children and the general household duties that would be shared by her sister wives.

Wow, this is such a disgusting thing?

How will the disabled be cared for in this Kingdom? Will they have to be married off as well?

In this most wonderful Kingdom will it be illegal for women to work? What about infertile men and women? Will they be allowed to marry? Work? What about intersex people? What about homosexuals? How will all these people be taken care of? Will people get raises according to how large their families are? Will being single be against the law? What is "full age" for a woman in the Kingdom---12, 14...?

Women having skills and performing a trade in the home or close by the home to contribute what she can is perfectly admirable as long as it is with her husband's blessing.

I don't see the option to adopt children from somewhere in the world going away anytime soon. As a result of the calamities coming there likely will be a very large number of orphans who are brought into the places of refuge.

What do you mean by intersex people? If you mean people that have deformed sexual anatomy the understanding I have is our bodies are part of our eternal inheritance and so it is a reflection of issues that need to be worked on or that we have chosen to work on for some particular purpose. Specific individual revelation by priesthood leadership likely would be required in such matters.

Homosexuality is sin and God's Law shall be applied. Likely they shall simply be exiled from the society to go and do as they please among those accepting of it.

When you ask "will people get raises depending on how large their families are" it indicates your mindset is stuck in a statist mentality to suppose some regulatory body is overseeing wages people collect. No such controls shall be imposed upon anyone in the Celestial Kingdom. It is sad how most LDS envision consecration as communism. It's no wonder they don't have any inclination to ask for it to be implemented. They have a corrupted conception of what it is.

Being single is required of men if no woman comes forward with valid signs and witnesses that she belongs to him.

In the case of women, its up to her father who is her priesthood head how an abnormal situation should be dealt with. He is the one providing for her and entitled to receive revelation on her behalf. I'm sure there are expectations of what the norm is, but I don't foresee there being any hard and fast laws about what age a girl marries.

You didn't ask, but your line of inquiry suggests you would also want to know I give it as my opinion if a single young lady wants to go off and live alone outside of her father's household that she will have to go out into the world to do it. Such shall be viewed as a loose woman and shunned.

Plural marriage will NOT maintain a woman's liberty. From what you describe it would be prostitution and slavery.

If you had eyes to see you would see that women of today already are agents of prostitution and slavery for the sake of the state. Because you view God's Celestial Law in the light you do, you have chosen the alternative plan and your destiny is sealed to it. I'm so sorry. You could've course repent, but I don't see you being anywhere near to that. Again, I am so sorry. Now is not the time to be taking the position you are.

[_j-bug]

j-bug:

A) Are you married?
B) If so, did you follow the same methodology that you idealize here?
C) If not, why not?

A) I am married.

B) Yes, more or less, but not intentionally so.

C) I did buck things to some extent in efforts I put forth to garner the attention of some young ladies but it always puzzled me how horrible I felt inside for doing it. I did it mostly out of the expectation that surrounded me influencing me that I should be doing it. And, of course, I admit, I am a man who is no stranger to passion. But, I am very grateful to clearly understand the bounds the Lord defines for those passions to be expressed so that I can easily and quickly check anything that isn't appropriate.

[_j-bug]

Okay, you are correct in stating that things are wrong. Great disturbances and siftings are going to take place both in the Church and out of the Church.

However, in everything else, that website and you are roughly 80-90% wrong.

Would you kindly point out what you consider to be the glaring deficiencies? If I were more acquainted with you I would probably be able to assume and even predict your opinion, but I'm relatively new here so please speak freely. I have no stereotype on you.

[_just me]

Your comments on equality and submission are nonsensical. You believe that I will be a joint heir with my husband (ok, not me because I'm evil, but go along with me here) but one of my husbands inheritances will actually be ME. How do I enherit myself? Does my DH enherit himself, too? Do I enherit him? No. I see. So we actually aren't equal.

Submit: To allow oneself to be subjected to something. To surrender to the authority or will of another.

Equal: having identical privileges, rights, status, etc.

Am I to understand that you see polygamy and the Kingdom coming before the Millenium? Or that the Millenial rein will only be for part of the Earth while the rest of the Earth is not part of the Kingdom? During the M. people will "live to the age of a tree" and be twinkled or something like that. The war will be over for 1000 years. So, where are all these widows coming from? And where are you sending all these outcasts?

In regards to D&C 58, you don't really answer why God would say that anyone obeying his law does not NEED to break the law of the land. You just go on about speeding to get medical attention for your kid. That still doesn't address the problem of God saying you don't need to break the law of the land to obey my laws and you saying that Joseph Smith HAD to live polygamy. That makes God a liar.

Your version of the Kingdom and polygamy does not solve the rape issue. How is forcing the majority of the men to be unmarried going to solve violence against women??? You say you dislike the FLDS version of things yet I see a lot of shunning and throwing away people in your version of a perfect society. The math of polygamy still doesn't work.

The reason I asked the question about raises according to family size is because you state that women will be unable to support themselves. They'll need a maaan. Your view of consecration cannot support them, so I guess you'll have to explain your random vision of consecration.

Your Kingdom seems that it will be rather small. Everyone who doesn't fit in to the neat little box you've created will be shunned. Your Kingdom sounds like hell. Lucky for us it will never happen. I have a lot more hope in humanity than you. Men are really not as bad as you make them out to be.

[_Dr. Shades]

j-bug, you also talked a lot about concubinage. Now, if a man has to raise up seed to his brother, or if a woman has to raise up seed to her "sister wife," how is this fair to either person in such a situation? You make God out to be a respecter of persons.

[_j-bug]

j-bug, you also talked a lot about concubinage. Now, if a man has to raise up seed to his brother, or if a woman has to raise up seed to her "sister wife," how is this fair to either person in such a situation? You make God out to be a respecter of persons.

I already said the context that concubinage has its place in is to deal with already less than ideal circumstances. In the case of a husband dying the law required the deceased man's brother to be his brother's redeemer, so to speak. It is a part of the Lord's way to mitigate against very unfortunate circumstances. By the widow becoming a concubine to her deceased husband's brother she has her needs met and also she will be enabled to continue to bear seed that will be counted for her and her deceased husband. It is an act of love and being a brother's keeper to keep these provisions. Was if fair that the woman's husband died? Life isn't always fair, but when God's Laws are honored the best is generally always made out of whatever circumstances exist.

Please do not be offended, you do seem like a very pleasant individual, but your post here is asking exactly the same question Cain asked the Lord: "Am I my brother's keeper?"

My understanding is the mainstream LDS are overtaken by the spirit of Cain. Any who have Abel's fortitude to render the acceptable offering that the Father requires are spiritually murdered by Cain.

How so? Having the Gift of the Holy Ghost taken from someone is separating that person from God, which is spiritual death. If they are "denied the Holy Ghost" when they are actually worthy to retain it then they were spiritually murdered.

Thus, when you read D&C 132:27 you can come to better understand what the unpardonable sin actually is and how you can get innocent (spiritual) blood on your hands. Of course if you are consenting to someone's physical murder you are also denying the Holy Ghost a tabernacle that was otherwise worthy so again the Holy Ghost is denied just the same. Either way the Lord counts the removal of the Holy Ghost from someone worthy as murder and its unequivocal consequence is Perdition.

So, I implore you, watch your knee-jerk reactions to what I say as it is quite likely you have contemplated or shall eventually contemplate whether or not you think I should be excommunicated. It seems the spirit of Cain already has a strong foothold in your mindset so please beware.

[_kamenraider]

Okay, you are correct in stating that things are wrong. Great disturbances and siftings are going to take place both in the Church and out of the Church.

However, in everything else, that website and you are roughly 80-90% wrong.

Would you kindly point out what you consider to be the glaring deficiencies? If I were more acquainted with you I would probably be able to assume and even predict your opinion, but I'm relatively new here so please speak freely. I have no stereotype on you.

The handshake stuff reminded me of the book Codex Magica by Texe Marrs, which to me is a total joke. I don't buy the thing about the tornado either. Aren't you aware that the tornado actually diverted its path away from the Salt Lake Temple at the last minute? Why would it have done that if it was appointed to start the destruction which was to begin at the Lord's house?

[_j-bug]

Your comments on equality and submission are nonsensical. You believe that I will be a joint heir with my husband (ok, not me because I'm evil, but go along with me here) but one of my husbands inheritances will actually be ME. How do I enherit myself? Does my DH enherit himself, too? Do I enherit him? No. I see. So we actually aren't equal.

You seem to be willfully tangling things.

Submit: To allow oneself to be subjected to something. To surrender to the authority or will of another.

Equal: having identical privileges, rights, status, etc.

There is no contradiction between these two terms when the combined result pertains to what is viewed by God as a single entity. A husband and wife are to cleave to one another and to become "one flesh". The wife receives the name of her husband because she is now "one flesh" with him. What God has put together and joined, Lucifer is doing all he can to keep seperated.

Am I to understand that you see polygamy and the Kingdom coming before the Millennium?

The foundation for the Millennium has already been laid so in one sense it is already here. It's quite likely you do not see the Millennium in practical terms but instead have the fantastical view of it because you read the metaphoric terms as if they were literal. What defines the glory of a kingdom is the law the citizens of that kingdom govern themselves by. This planet shall host all the kingdoms of glory and simultaneously at that.

Or that the Millenial reign will only be for part of the Earth while the rest of the Earth is not part of the Kingdom?

Yes, you are starting to catch on. The Celestial Kingdom is what shall have its headquarters in Jackson County Missouri, in due time. If you wish to live there in full standing you must covenant to abide Celestial Law.

During the M. people will "live to the age of a tree" and be twinkled or something like that. The war will be over for 1000 years. So, where are all these widows coming from? And where are you sending all these outcasts?

Again, your mindset for the Millennium is totally coming from the fantastical metaphoric reading of things instead of from the practical and real understanding of things. Life during the Millennium will be very much the same as it now is with the exception that the minds of men shall not be so full of darkness and people will be quickened in their understanding and appreciation of God's Celestial Law and faithfully abide in it for a very long time. What holy writ is keying in on is the drastic difference when things are looked at on the spiritual plane. It will most definitely be far more glorious.

In regards to D&C 58, you don't really answer why God would say that anyone obeying his law does not NEED to break the law of the land. You just go on about speeding to get medical attention for your kid. That still doesn't address the problem of God saying you don't need to break the law of the land to obey my laws and you saying that Joseph Smith HAD to live polygamy. That makes God a liar.

This verse is a nutshell statement that the Lord touches upon more fully in section 134. I recommend you carefully read that section.

Your version of the Kingdom and polygamy does not solve the rape issue. How is forcing the majority of the men to be unmarried going to solve violence against women???

Rapists are in the Telestial Kingdom.

You say you dislike the FLDS version of things yet I see a lot of shunning and throwing away people in your version of a perfect society. The math of polygamy still doesn't work.

Your statement here isn't clear to me.

The reason I asked the question about raises according to family size is because you state that women will be unable to support themselves. They'll need a maaan. Your view of consecration cannot support them, so I guess you'll have to explain your random vision of consecration.

Your statements here are not clear either.

Your Kingdom seems that it will be rather small. Everyone who doesn't fit in to the neat little box you've created will be shunned. Your Kingdom sounds like hell. Lucky for us it will never happen. I have a lot more hope in humanity than you. Men are really not as bad as you make them out to be.

It is true that "straight and narrow is the way and few there be who find it". That of course pertains to the bottleneck of those now living that shall survive into it. Give it a couple of generations and it's size will be very tremendous. There have been many righteous people worthy throughout the Creation who shall be a part of it.

Based on your beliefs I am certain it would be hell for you and I am also quite confident, unless you have a significant change of heart and mind, it will never happen for you. You are with the world in the broad path that leadeth unto the deaths. It baffles me why a person such as you would find any sincere and lasting desire to have anything to do with the Mormon Church knowing what it truly believes and how you are so casually at odds with its basic fundamentals.