Continued Damage Control!!

[_Daniel Peterson]

FARMS/MI worships titles and degrees, and their "job description" is to demean and discredit anyone who disagrees with them.

This is false, of course.

[_Ray A]

This is false, of course.

Then maybe you should address the question of why Mike Ash is taken seriously, and not Tom Ferguson.

Has The Review written anything critical of Mike Ash's work?

[_Kishkumen]

Has The Review written anything critical of Mike Ash's work?

Well, it is true that Mike Ash has never compared the church favorably to a social club.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Then maybe you should address the question of why Mike Ash is taken seriously,

Plainly it's because his titles and degrees are worshiped.

[_Ray A]

Plainly it's because his titles and degrees are worshiped.

I should have clarified that: Apologist titles and degrees are "worshiped". John Welch has a law degree, as did Tom Ferguson. Did The Review ever complain that Welch isn't qualified to comment on chiasmus (which he studied as a missionary), or archaeology, because he "only had a law degree"?

His MA in Latin and Greek hardly qualifies him to read "Reformed Egyptian", or pronounce other non-specialists as Persona non Grata in apologetic circles. He was, as Nibley so well put it, an amateur. Like Tom Ferguson.

I don't have a problem with you dismissing Ferguson because of what you believe, but dismissing him on a lack of academic title, and "qualifications", is rather bothersome.

[_Daniel Peterson]

FARMS/MI worships titles and degrees, and their "job description" is to demean and discredit anyone who disagrees with them.

Absolutely anyone.

Anyone and everyone who disagrees with us.

As illustrated in the following specimens:

FARMS Review 11/2 (1999)
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... l=11&num=2

FARMS Review 15/1 (2003) pp. 97-258
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... l=15&num=1

and

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=643
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=644
http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=645

As well as in the following representative books:

• A Comprehensive Annotated Book of Mormon Bibliography
by Jeanette W. Miller, Donald W. Parry, and Sandra A. Thorne
• Ancient Scrolls from the Dead Sea
by M. Gerald Bradford
• Ancient State, The
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Approaching Zion
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Astronomy, Papyrus, and Covenant
by John Gee, and Brian M. Hauglid
• Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins
by Noel B. Reynolds
• Book of Mormon Authorship: New Light on Ancient Origins
by Noel B. Reynolds, and Charles D. Tate
• Book of Mormon and DNA Research, The
by Daniel C. Peterson
• Book of Mormon and Other Hidden Books: Out of Darkness Unto Light, The
by John A. Tvedtnes
• Brother Brigham Challenges the Saints
by Hugh W. Nibley
• By Study and Also by Faith: Volume 1
by John M. Lundquist, and Stephen D. Ricks
• By Study and Also by Faith: Volume 2
by John M. Lundquist, and Stephen D. Ricks
• Charting the Book of Mormon: Visual Aids for Personal Study and Teaching
by J. Gregory Welch, and John W. Welch
• Chiasmus in Antiquity
by John W. Welch
• Dead Sea Scrolls: Questions and Responses for Latter-day Saints, The
by Donald W. Parry, and Stephen D. Ricks
• Disciple as Scholar: Essays on Scripture and the Ancient World in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, The
• Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson, The
• Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy
by Noel B. Reynolds
• Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon
by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch
• Enoch the Prophet
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Expressions of Faith: Testimonies of Latter-day Saint Scholars
by Susan Easton Black, and Authors Various
• Feasting on the Word: The Literary Testimony of the Book of Mormon
by Richard Dilworth Rust
• Finding Biblical Hebrew and Other Ancient Literary Forms in the Book of Mormon
by Hugh W. Pinnock
• Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem
by David R. Seely, JoAnn H. Seely, and John W. Welch
• Harmonizing Isaiah
by Donald W. Parry
• Illuminating the Sermon at the Temple & Sermon on the Mount
by John W. Welch
• King Benjamin's Speech: "That Ye May Learn Wisdom"
by Stephen D. Ricks, and John W. Welch
• LDS Perspectives on the Dead Sea Scrolls
by Donald W. Parry, and Dana M. Pike
• Latter-day Christianity: 10 Basic Issues
by Robert L. Millet, and Noel B. Reynolds
• Lehi in the Desert; The World of the Jaredites; There Were Jaredites
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Mormon's Map
by John L. Sorenson
• Mormonism and Early Christianity
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Mormons, Scripture, and the Ancient World: Studies in Honor of John L. Sorenson
by Davis Bitton
• Of All Things! Classic Quotations from Hugh Nibley
by Gary P. Gillum
• Offenders for a Word
by Daniel C. Peterson, and Stephen D. Ricks
• Old Testament and Related Studies
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Pressing Forward with the Book of Mormon: The FARMS Updates of the 1990s
by Melvin J. Thorne, and John W. Welch
• Prophetic Book of Mormon, The
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Rediscovering the Book of Mormon
by John L. Sorenson, and Melvin J. Thorne
• Reexploring the Book of Mormon
by John W. Welch
• Revelation, Reason, and Faith: Essays in Honor of Truman G. Madsen
by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and Stephen D. Ricks
• Romans 1: Notes and Reflections
by James E. Faulconer
• Sermon at the Temple and the Sermon on the Mount, The
by John W. Welch
• Since Cumorah
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Teachings of the Book of Mormon: Semester 1
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Teachings of the Book of Mormon: Semester 2
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Teachings of the Book of Mormon: Semester 3
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Teachings of the Book of Mormon: Semester 4
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Temple and Cosmos
by Hugh W. Nibley
• Temple in Time and Eternity, The
by Donald W. Parry, and Stephen D. Ricks
• Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass
by Hugh W. Nibley
• To All the World: The Book of Mormon Articles from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism
by S. Kent Brown, Daniel H. Ludlow, and John W. Welch
• Uncovering the Original Text of the Book of Mormon
by M. Gerald Bradford, and Alison V.P. Coutts
• Warfare in the Book of Mormon
by William J. Hamblin, and Stephen D. Ricks
• When the Lights Went Out: Three Studies on the Ancient Apostasy
by Hugh W. Nibley
• World and the Prophets, The
by Hugh W. Nibley

[_Joey]

This makes me wonder what qualifications one must have in order to publish conclusions about the Book of Mormon. For example, how would Mike Ash's credentials compare to Tom Ferguson's? At least Ferguson made multiple trips to Central America during his lifetime to get his knowledge first hand. I'm looking forward to investigating this further.

Given that it's only about 30 degrees here in Ft. Worth and all the golf for my Superbowl weekend here is shot, I'll chime in.

This is actually a great point of "scholarly standards" for FARMS/MI. The first and most significant standard for getting articles published at the MI is obviously "loyalty to the brethren". If because of your loyalty to your profession you decide to leave the church, you and your works are brought under the FARMS "retro review" process which will include a retrospective rebuff of your scholarly credentials and character. Thomas Ferguson and Dee Jay Nelson are but two who have gone through the FARMS plow under for their honesty.

But your question regarding Ash is quite valid, especially in light of Peterson's recent challenge elsewhere about pretend scholars. You've got Ash, an electronics salesman in Ogden, and Gardner, a software salesman in NM, being touted as scholars and experts based not on their academic credentials, but their interest in a part time hobby!! Neither have the academic credentials to get their papers, defending the church, published anywhere else except in Church provided venues. But the likes of these guys to trash experts like Michael Coe merely because he likes to fish in his later years is part of their "scholarly evaluation" if they can't deal with his scholarship straight up!

Anyway, Go Packers! It may feel like I'm at Lambau on the outside!

[_bcspace]

Out of all the mopologetic efforts, you have to feel the sorriest for those trying to defend the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. It's like trying establish that there was a real place named Oz, with a real yellow brick road.

I don't think anyone's trying to do that. Your criticism runs up against scientific methodology in which no evidence for is not evidence against and there is absolutely no evidence against. Seems to me that as time goes by, more and more antiBoM arguments fall by the wayside too.

[_Tad]

From Prof. Michael Coe's interview for PBS' The Mormons:

[So what do you think] as an archaeologist watching this happen, looking at this?

When I was a graduate student writing my dissertation on very early cultures in the south coast of Guatemala, it was suggested to me by Alfred Kidder -- who was the leading American archaeologist of his day, the leading New World archaeologist -- he asked me, since he was on the board the New World Archaeological Foundation, which had been founded to find for the Mormon Church these relics, these ancient remains, to go over and see what they're doing.

So I did. I went over and visited and spent a wonderful week with the New World Archaeological Foundation archaeologists, who were working on a very early site in the state of Chiapas, and I was very enormously impressed with the work they were doing. It had nothing to do with the Book of Mormon archaeology. These were scientific archaeologists working with wonderful field methods. They undoubtedly believed in the Book of Mormon since they were religious Mormons, but they were doing a wonderful job, and I was impressed with that.

So I think it's probably erroneous to categorically state that Thomas Ferguson was not an archaeologist; the organization he founded seemed to be doing some fairly good archaeological work.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think it's probably erroneous to categorically state that Thomas Ferguson was not an archaeologist; the organization he founded seemed to be doing some fairly good archaeological work.

Absolutely it was, and it continues to do so.

On what basis, though, would you consider Thomas Ferguson an archaeologist? How do you use that word?

Did you read this link, which I also provided above?

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=532

Thomas Ferguson's commitment and enthusiasm and his legal training were indispensable to the founding of the New World Archaeological Foundation. But he was not an archaeologist. He visited the sites, sometimes for extended stays, but he was a booster, a well-informed amateur, and an organizer, not an expert in the field.

See, too, John Sorenson's "Addendum" to John Gee's "A Tragedy of Errors" (located, on line, just after Gee's text but before Gee's notes):

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... um=1&id=92

Professor Sorenson knew Thomas Ferguson for many, many years -- even traveling with him in Mesoamerica on several occasions -- and was intimately involved with the New World Archaeological Foundation from its beginning.