Do you REALLY know?

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_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _Quasimodo »

Ceeboo wrote:You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?


I've never been a Mormon, so I never "knew" the Church was true. For that matter, I've never "known" that any religion was true.

Knowing what is true is a very hard thing to do (in my experience).

Knowing that something is "not true" is much easier. A much lower bar to cross. If there is no real proof, anything can stand as "not true" until proof does arise.

Ray A wrote:I do not "know" that the LDS Church is "not true". What I do know is that for many it works, and for them it is therefore "true".

Can what I now "know" change? It happens all the time. I don't expect my knowledge of gravity to change, nor my expectation that the sun will rise tomorrow, nor that we share some 99% of our genes with chimpanzees, but I could do some rethinking about wormholes and God questions, often referred to as the "big questions".


Hey Ray!

Good to see you again!

For me, the question is, do the faithful "know" or only hope that they know?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Quasimodo wrote:Hey Ray!

Good to see you again!

You do realize that Ray's post is almost a month and a half old, right?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Quasimodo
_Emeritus
Posts: 11784
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _Quasimodo »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:Hey Ray!

Good to see you again!

You do realize that Ray's post is almost a month and a half old, right?


Ahhh! I'm holding my hand over my face in shame. I guess I should read the post dates. I hadn't read this post earlier and just assumed he was back. I know "assume makes an ass of u and me". Me specifically.

I'm pleading old age and hope that I'll be forgiven (I would like to see him back).
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_Tarski
_Emeritus
Posts: 3059
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _Tarski »

Ceeboo wrote:Good morning all,

For those of you who used to be devout LDS and are now no longer LDS:

You once 'knew' the LDS Church was true. Yes?
You now 'know' the LDS Church is not true. Yes?

What makes you more confident about what you 'know' now then what you used to 'know'?
And is it possible that what you 'know' now will change again?

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo


I once knew that Santa was real. Now I know he doesn't exist like I thought. How do I know I really know now and not before?
It's the same idea and there is an answer.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Pollypinks
_Emeritus
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:36 pm

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _Pollypinks »

I believed on faith. I did not have all the evidence that I have now. It didn't happen in a short period of time. It began with a two year process, where I felt my faith had failed me. Then it proceeded with investigation into areas not delved into by the church. When I realized that we had believed in a faith based on a man who looked into a hat and wore special glasses, slept with underaged girls, married other men's wives, and had business practices that pissed off every area of the country where they lived. Putting it altogether made me really think. Now, did I feel that I had no faith in God? I am one of the very few who still have faith in God. Can I prove it? Of course not. But my life since leaving Mormonism has morphed into something of greater ease and peace.
_MadMonk
_Emeritus
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:18 pm

Re: Do you REALLY know?

Post by _MadMonk »

Quasimodo wrote:For me, the question is, do the faithful "know" or only hope that they know?

Personally, I'd have to say the latter. I have never been a Mormon, but I have had some experience of religious wanderings in different directions.

My theory, which perhaps a real theologian might be able to make rigorous, is that the system is set up so that real certainty about God, faith, and religion is impossible, and for good reason: there needs to be room for freedom of will.

Example: I can try to believe all I want that my easy chair does not exist, but if I try to walk across the floor on a path that intersects the position of that chair, I will stub my toes. And I will continue to stub my toes as long as my feet keep coming into contact with the chair. Sooner or later (later, in my case; I'm stubborn), I will be forced to admit that the chair exists. Logical positivism and solipsism aside, this is about as concrete as knowledge gets, especially when factoring in the fact that every visitor to my apartment also experiences the chair in the same way. I am forced to believe in the chair.

Belief in God, however, is not like belief in my chair. If it were possible to experience God in the same way as we experience a chair, we would have no choice but to believe, right? Similarly, if there were concrete evidence of God's non-existence, we would be forced to disbelieve. (I hope my meaning here is clear, even if I have not expressed myself felicitously.)

Yet I am a believer, and moreover a Christian, as a result of experiences that to me are unquestionably convincing, albeit not in the same way as my experiences of my chair. In other words, though I take it as axiomatic that this is a valid way of knowing, my God-experiences are subjective and not reproducible in the scientific sense. I am left with the conviction that they are true for me, and that God does exist, as far as I can tell--but not in any way that might serve as proof positive to anyone else.

For me, the best guide has turned out to be "By their fruits shall ye know them." And of course, while I have striven to be as objective as possible in assessing the various faith traditions to which I might ascribe, I have to admit that it is impossible to exclude a fairly high degree of subjectivity (and, unfortunately, wishful thinking) from the process.

It goes without saying (but I will say it anyway), that your mileage is almost certain to vary.

MadMonk
Only the saints would joke so about the gods, because it was either joke or scream, and they alone knew it was all the same to the gods. -- Lois McMaster Bujold, The Curse of Chalion
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