Daniel Peterson - question on your article on the Witnesses

[_why me]

If one is determined to explain the visions away, one can do it.

This is true. However, the testimonies of these 11 witnesses are the foundation of the LDS church. And the fact that not one ever denied what they either saw with their eyes or felt with their hands is a major plus for the LDS church. And I might add, a convincing part of LDS history since many fell away from the church or had a falling out with Joseph Smith.

[_Fence Sitter]

What do we know about the weight of the plates as described by those that handled them?

Ca. 60 lbs. is the most commonly recurring estimate.

Given the size dimensions (which offhand I do not know) would it be reasonable to assume that plates made of gold would weigh 60 pounds?

[_McKay Jones]

Plates of solid gold in the dimensions described by the witnesses would have weighed much more than 60 lbs. But, pure gold would have been a very poor medium for engraving characters (much too soft and malleable --- would not have maintained engravings distinct from other etchings from the slightest scratching).

A metal alloy like tumbaga seems much more likely and useful, and tumbaga is indigenous to Mesoamerica. A thin layer of gold was chemically overlaid over copper, giving the metal the "appearance of gold" (the witnesses description), but the strength of copper. This would have been much more durable and lighter than gold, while retaining gold's appearance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumbaga

[_LDS truthseeker]

Given the size dimensions (which offhand I do not know) would it be reasonable to assume that plates made of gold would weigh 60 pounds?

Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold. The witnesses described them as having the 'appearance of gold'. Although Joseph originally said "there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates" (History of the Church, vol. 1, by Joseph Smith, pp. 11-12), Joseph later wrote to John Wentworth that the plates had "the appearance of gold": "These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold.(History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 537).

Many things could account for this such as an alloy of gold and another metal or even polished copper plates. A gold alloy or polished copper or even painted tin would have the appearance of gold yet weigh much less.

Using calculations to arrive at the plates is unnecessary as many of the witnesses have given their estimates as to the weight of the plates by lifting the container that held the plates which several people claim to have done.

Here are all the statements I could find that indicate the weight of the plates from those that claimed to have lifted the container that reportedly contained the plates:

William Smith, a brother of the Prophet
•William Smith, a brother of the Prophet who had handled and hefted the plates in a pillow-case, claimed on several occasions that the set of plates weighed about sixty pounds. (Robert F. Smith, The 'Golden' Plates, pp 276 Reexploring the Book of Mormon, ed., John W. Welch ( Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1992).

http://www.mormonfortress.com/gweight.html

•Joseph's brother William: "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. ... Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family." (Zion's Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894).
•"I was permitted to lift them... . They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgement."[8] -William Smith William Smith, William Smith on Mormonism (Lamoni, Iowa: Herald Steam, 1883), 12.
•"I ... judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds."[9]-William Smith William Smith interview with E. C. Briggs. Originally written by J. W. Peterson for Zions Ensign ( Independence, Mo.); reprinted in Deseret Evening News, 20 January 1894, 11.
•"They were much heavier than a stone, and very much heavier than wood... . As near as I could tell, about sixty pounds."[10] -William Smith William Smith interview, The Saints' Herald, 4 October 1884, 644.

Martin Harris
•"weighing altogether from forty to sixty lbs."[7] -Martin Harris Martin Harris interview, Iowa State Register, August 1870, as quoted in Milton V. Backman Jr., Eyewitness Accounts of the Restoration (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1986), 226.
•"I hefted the plates, and I knew from the heft that they were lead or gold."[11] -Martin Harris "Interview with Martin Harris," Tiffany's Monthly, May 1859, 169.
•"My daughter said, they were about as much as she could lift. They were now in the glass-box, and my wife said they were very heavy. They both lifted them."[12] -Martin Harris ( Ibid., 168.)

Joseph's sister Catherine
•Joseph's sister Catherine, while she was dusting in the room where he had been translating, "hefted those plates [which were covered with a cloth] and found them very heavy."[14] -H. S. Salisbury, paraphrasing Catherine Smith Salisbury I. B. Bell interview with H. S. Salisbury (grandson of Catherine Smith Salisbury), Historical Department Archives, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Willard Chase
Willard Chase reportedly also said the plates weighed 50 or 60 pounds but I haven't yet been able to locate the exact quote. Robert F. Smith, "The 'Golden' Plates," Reexploring the Book of Mormon, ed., John W. Welch (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1992).

CONCLUSION:
So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds.

Note: I do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold.

[_LDS truthseeker]

If one is determined to explain the visions away, one can do it.

Unless one is convinced a priori that veridical visions don't occur, however, the most commonsensical way of reading these accounts is to assume that they reflect actually occurring visions of some sort.

Yes, I believe that Frederick G. Williams claims to have seen the same thing. But I don't have my sources near at hand right now.

NOW GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD,
Daniel, please let me know if you find evidence that Frederick G. Williams also saw the same thing as Joseph and Sidney did. Otherwise, it is an unsupported assumption to suggest the vision was witnessed by him in the same way as Joseph and Sidney saw the vision which readers of your article would likely assume. Thank You

[_McKay Jones]

I do however, wonder why the angel would give Joseph specific instruction that he could not use the plates for personal gain if they were not made of gold.

If they were real ancient plate of some sort, "having the appearance of gold," and not tin plates made with materials and methods available in 1820s upstate New York, they would have had high value as curiosities and antiquities, if nothing else.

Oliver Cowdery's letters to then-non-Mormon W.W. Phelps, printed in the Messenger and Advocate, contain much more detail concerning the obtaining of the plates, which he relates Joseph told him. In this account, Joseph was sorely tempted to use the plates to lift his family out of their financial hardships, and was shocked when he reached for them, sorely chastened, and informed that he would not be able to get them until he had been adequately adequately prepared.

[_Fence Sitter]

Perhaps the angel's instruction not to use the plates for profit were intended for those people that would expect Joseph Smith to use them for profit. In a twist of irony he did use them for prophet.