Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community Continued

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_Droopy
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

Buffalo wrote:
Droopy wrote:


Where?


See the portion I quoted. That's why I quoted that portion.



"Idlers" would always and in every situation be a subset of the class "poor," this being a matter of personal character and psychology that exists both among the poor and within other classes.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_karl61
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _karl61 »

Isaiah had been dead for two hundred years when that was written by his "Community".
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_moksha
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _moksha »

Kevin's quotations from the Book of Mormon effectively undercut Droopy's premise, at least from a Mormon point of view, but Droopy was referring to the modern inspirations brought forth by Elder Packer, Cleon Skousen and the Society. So there.
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_Buffalo
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Buffalo »

Kevin Graham wrote:He believes in the Five Thousand Year leap.

Isn't that good enough?


Forget Joseph - Skousen was the REAL prophet of the restoration!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Ren
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Ren »

Droopy wrote:"Idlers" would always and in every situation be a subset of the class "poor",


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Hilton

She is an example of the modern phenomenon of the 'celebutante', the celebrity who rises to fame not because of their talent or work but because of their inherited wealth and controversial lifestyle.
_Droopy
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

Jason Bourne wrote:We have succeeded fairly well in establishing in the minds of Latter-day Saints that they should take care of their own material needs and then contribute to the welfare of those who cannot provide the necessities of life. If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all.

We have counseled bishops and stake presidents to be very careful to avoid abuses in the welfare program. When people are able but are unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord, that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer. The simple rule has been, to the fullest extent possible, to take care of one’s self.



How does one determine idler? Is someone who is poor automatically an idler? How about someone who is disabled?


And how do the words of another prophet compare to the words of Elder Packer? I see no qualification about an idler in the words below.

Mosiah 4:16-25
16And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with cjoy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

22And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

25And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received.



1. The nature of "the idler", whether among the poor or as the characteristic of any individual, regardless of socioeconomic level, can be easily discerned in Packer's following comments:

President Marion G. Romney in our last conference explained this principle with his characteristic simple directness: “The obligation to sustain one’s self was divinely imposed upon the human race at its beginning. ‘In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground.’ (Gen. 3:19.)”

The welfare handbook instructs, “(We must) earnestly teach and urge members to be self-sustaining to the fullest extent of their power. No Latter-day Saint will … voluntarily shift from himself the burden of his own support. So long as he can, under the inspiration of the Almighty and with his own labors, he will supply himself with the necessities of life.” (1952, p. 2.)

We have counseled bishops and stake presidents to be very careful to avoid abuses in the welfare program. When people are able but are unwilling to take care of themselves, we are responsible to employ the dictum of the Lord, that the idler shall not eat the bread of the laborer. The simple rule has been, to the fullest extent possible, to take care of one’s self.


By logical extension, those who can, but will not comply with these principles and requirements of reciprocity and contribution, to the degree capable, with respect to the provision of Church welfare, could be seen as "idlers" attempting to "live off of" the property and labor of others without contributing to its creation.

2. By pitting King Benjamin against Boyd Packer, you pose a Kantian problem of seeing Benjamin's teachings about helping the poor as absolute, uncompromising maxims having no bounds, conditions, or governing limitations. As we see in D&C 88: 38-39:

And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.


Further, we see that:

There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.


The commandments and mandates regarding our relations with the poor are not absolute mandates, transcending and trumping the other core principles of the gospel. They are not transcendentally absolute and unconditioned, having no "bounds and conditions" wherewith they are capacitated to various human circumstances. Principles such as this, when all mediating/governing bounds and conditions are removed from them, will inevitably clash with and come into conflict with other fundamental principles, with no reconciliation possible, unless they are mediated by gospel law as a system.


We cannot, in other words, isolate and compartmentalize principles (such as grace, for instance) such that it overwhelms and dominates the gospel as a system of doctrine, principle, law and spiritual government.

Further, your criticism here would seem to be self negating, as the same prophet from whom came the Book of Mormon, and King Benjamin s words, is the same prophet from whom came the following:

“the idler shall not have place in the church, except he repent and mend his ways.” (D&C 75:29.)


For the Church, King Benjamin, Joseph Smith, and Boyd Packer all hold the very same priesthood and the same mantel of authority as "prophets, seers, and revelators" through which they can receive the mind and will of the Lord for the Church.

There is no contradiction at all in any of the statements or principles taught here. Welfare principles simply have mediating bounds, conditions, and perimeters just as do all other principles, promises, and blessings within the gospel system.

Further, the context of the King Benjamin material would appear to be an appeal to individuals in their personal relations with "the beggar" and people in need, not a general rule for the church as an organization managing large scale welfare services across an entire population.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

moksha wrote:Kevin's quotations from the Book of Mormon effectively undercut Droopy's premise, at least from a Mormon point of view, but Droopy was referring to the modern inspirations brought forth by Elder Packer, Cleon Skousen and the Society. So there.



As I've argued above, they simply represent an attempt to isolate, decontextualize and amplify a specific principle or mandate at the expense of the gospel as a system.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Droopy »

Scriptural references regarding idelness, and its relation to Zion society and the nature of welfare services:


Let every man be diligent in all things. And the idler shall not have place in the church, except he repent and mend his ways (D&C 75:29)

Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor wear the garments of the laborer (D&C 42:42).

Now, I, the Lord, am not well pleased with the inhabitants of Zion, for there are idlers among them; and their children are also growing up in wickedness; they also seek not earnestly the riches of eternity, but their eyes are full of greediness (D&C 68:31).

Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated (D&C 88:124).

Woe unto you poor men, whose hearts are not broken, whose spirits are not contrite, and whose bellies are not satisfied, and whose hands are not stayed from laying hold upon other men’s goods, whose eyes are full of greediness, and who will not labor with your own hands (D&C 56:17).

These are the associated principles - the "bounds and conditions - the mediate the commands and mandates to take care of the poor, and indicate the reciprocal responsibilities and moral relations of the poor to the givers.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_wenglund
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _wenglund »

What I value most about the efforts of Bokovoy and company, is that they rightly draw our attention to those in need--something we tend not to be mindful of during our frantic lives. And, if they choose to conform their own personal lives to the beliefs they espouse, all the better for them and those in need.

I meantion this as someone who doesn't exactly share Bokovoy's over-all view on the matter, but als because I don't want it to get lost in the dust cloud of oft counter-productive debate (much of which is semantic).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Zion: "Communal" or Zion Community?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

The commandments and mandates regarding our relations with the poor are not absolute mandates, transcending and trumping the other core principles of the gospel. They are not transcendentally absolute and unconditioned, having no "bounds and conditions" wherewith they are capacitated to various human circumstances. Principles such as this, when all mediating/governing bounds and conditions are removed from them, will inevitably clash with and come into conflict with other fundamental principles, with no reconciliation possible, unless they are mediated by gospel law as a system.



Well I have to be honest. This sounds like the internal revenue code that is written in such a way to say "here is the general rule and now here are all the exceptions." It seems clear to me what King Benjamin said is that if a beggar asks we give. We do not judge. If you say "you are a lazy idler and I won't give" you are under condemnation at least according to King Benjamin. To wiggle out of it you need to plead to a whole lot of other passages that have nothing to do with what Benjamin said and then twist and apply it to make it mean something it doesn't. And you use way too many words to do so. Can you cut down a bit on the verbiage? Maybe I am slow but it seems you could say what you want in about half or less words.

We cannot, in other words, isolate and compartmentalize principles (such as grace, for instance) such that it overwhelms and dominates the gospel as a system of doctrine, principle, law and spiritual government.


Grace is another great example. Many Mormons leaders have ruined the pure teachings of Christ's grace as it relates to salvation by adding on layers of stuff that just ain't there.

Further, your criticism here would seem to be self negating, as the same prophet from whom came the Book of Mormon, and King Benjamin s words, is the same prophet from whom came the following:

Quote:
“the idler shall not have place in the church, except he repent and mend his ways.” (D&C 75:29.)



Uh I thought Joseph Smith just translated what someone else said. If such is the case your argument makes no sense.


For the Church, King Benjamin, Joseph Smith, and Boyd Packer all hold the very same priesthood and the same mantel of authority as "prophets, seers, and revelators" through which they can receive the mind and will of the Lord for the Church.


And according to the apologists they also mix lots of their own ideas and opinions in. So was Packer's talks and Romney's talk on par with Book of Mormon canon?

There is no contradiction at all in any of the statements or principles taught here. Welfare principles simply have mediating bounds, conditions, and perimeters just as do all other principles, promises, and blessings within the gospel system.


All I know is Benjamin said give freely and don't judge or withhold because you think they deserve the situation they are in. Seem pretty straight forward to me.


Further, the context of the King Benjamin material would appear to be an appeal to individuals in their personal relations with "the beggar" and people in need, not a general rule for the church as an organization managing large scale welfare services across an entire population.


So you and I need to be more kind and charitable with our limited means than the Church does? That does not seem right to me.


Look, I understand the idler issue and I think the goal should be to help the idler not be such. But when I controlled the FO funds I never denied anyone food or shelter. Then we worked on the other issues.
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