Home Teaching the Bishop - A Lesson Learned on Contention

[_Kishkumen]

It's not a very efficient way of gaining converts.

Yes, telling the truth would be a very inefficient way of gaining converts indeed.

[_Joseph]

bs wrote: "It's not a very efficient way of gaining converts."
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How very corporate of you. lds-inc has you for sure.

Requiring more study and prayer over a longer time would go a long way toward converts that stay active in the church. Now it is a feel-good conversion that is as easily attributed to missionaries who are friendly or friends who are helpful. Just feeling good is enough to get someone baptized even if they don't really know much of anything at all. Retention and activity rates would be much higher if the standards were raised and those entering had a good idea of what it was they were signing up for.

Knowledgeable converts is not what lds-inc is after and it is plain to see.

[_moksha]

Thank you Seth for that great post.

[Guest]

It's not a very efficient way of gaining converts. The Church believes and I also can agree that if someone is converted by the Spirit then none of these other things matter. The inefficient route of year long study is easier on the rest of us.

Hi BC. Statistics/studies seem to challenge your assertion here. LDS convert retention is absolutely terrible -- especially when compared with Jehovah's Witnesses. See my blog post on the subject from a while back:

http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=678

The way to combine the best of both worlds, imho, is for the Church to go after liberals and other unbelievers and get them out of the Church or actually converted. In so doing, you don't have as much erroneous teaching that one can still believe and do or believe that which is contrary to doctrine and still be a member in good standing. To some degree, I see that beginning to happen.

I really hope you don't mean this. Without question the Church should, and does a very good job of, defining and disseminating official teachings. Liberals, such as myself, don't view Church meetings etc... as an appropriate place to advocate our viewpoint. Now, I recognize that some do/have/may but I have not personally encountered this.

Also, aren't all Church members "unbelievers" in some sense. If I recall correctly, you don't believe in a Global Flood and you believe in theistic evolution. If I am correct, then you are a non-believer of official church teachings on these subjects. Should the Church "go after" you in order to lessen erroneous teachings? That seems to run contrary to Joseph Smith's view:

On the subject of agency as it relates to understanding doctrine, Joseph Smith explained the following in general conference on April 8, 1843: "I never thought it was right to call up a man and try him because he erred in doctrine. . . . I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be trammelled. It don't prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine."8 Here, the Prophet explains that because of agency humans are free to believe or not believe. They should not be forced to conform to a certain belief.

http://rsc.BYU.edu/pubDCannonJosephSmithAgency.php

[_Buffalo]

Perhaps it would be more efficient if the church followed the Catholic church's lead, and required a year of study (of the entire church--doctrine, history, warts and all) prior to allowing baptism.

It's not a very efficient way of gaining converts. The Church believes and I also can agree that if someone is converted by the Spirit then none of these other things matter. The inefficient route of year long study is easier on the rest of us.

Given the outrageously low retention rate of new converts, I'm not sure it's as "efficient" as the church thinks.

[_Buffalo]

Perhaps it would be more efficient if the church followed the Catholic church's lead, and required a year of study (of the entire church--doctrine, history, warts and all) prior to allowing baptism.

The way to combine the best of both worlds, imho, is for the Church to go after liberals and other unbelievers and get them out of the Church or actually converted. In so doing, you don't have as much erroneous teaching that one can still believe and do or believe that which is contrary to doctrine and still be a member in good standing. To some degree, I see that beginning to happen.

Good idea. Let's eject Jesus from the church. Joseph Smith, too.

[_sethpayne]

Thank you Seth for that great post.

Thanks moksha!

Hope you had a great Easter weekend.

[_Ceeboo]

Disagreement and discussion can be uplifting and inspiring as it is through non-contentious discourse that we all learn from each other and, in my view, have an opportunity to gain significant wisdom.

Amen!

Seth,
Hoping you and yours had a peace filled and joyous Easter.

by the way, I have often enjoyed your contributions/perspectives/example that you display on these boards. (This one certainly included)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_sethpayne]

Amen!

Seth,
Hoping you and yours had a peace filled and joyous Easter.

by the way, I have often enjoyed your contributions/perspectives/example that you display on these boards. (This one certainly included)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thank you, Ceeboo.

I had a great Easter. I'm actually in Seattle (on business) but spending time with my girlfriend, family and friends.

Did you listen to the Pope's Easter message? I thought it was very timely and certainly gave me pause.

[_Ceeboo]

Thank you, Ceeboo.

Pleasure!

I had a great Easter. I'm actually in Seattle (on business) but spending time with my girlfriend, family and friends.

Sleepless in Seattle? (How romantic, Seth!)

Did you listen to the Pope's Easter message? I thought it was very timely and certainly gave me pause.

Indeed.
"PEACE", perhaps the greatest gift one can offer/receive/have/spread. (My opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo