Truman Madsen on MST

[_Polygamy-Porter]

madeleine MST is nothing more than a cattle prod used by local leaders who have members straying from the herd.

When the average garden variety member voices concerns to his EQ prez/bishop/stake prez over LDS history/theology they reach for the MST as they preparation the unwitting questioner for the first jab, "Oh yeah? How much education do YOU have punk?"

The oscillator circuit starts up as the electrodes crackle, "Trade school?? An AS?, BS? Masters? Only a HS diploma??"

First jab with the MST, "ALL of these SCHOLARS have waaaahhhhhaaaaayy more EDUCATION than you and all KNOW more about LDS history/theology than you ever will, and they still believe!"

[_Simon Belmont]

What "scholar" in their right mind would want to be identified as a member of a group represented by the individual who made this video?

This is not scholarship. It is nothing but superstition, pure and simple. In fact, its is "make it up as you go along" superstition, often the most dangerous kind.

Oh, gee, I didn't know you knew all there is to know DrW. Pardon me. I mean, some "scholars" we laughed at and ridiculed for thinking Humans would one day fly, for believing that we could travel faster than sound, and -- blasphemy of all blasphemies -- that one day we would place a Human being on the moon!

Preposterous, I know. But, of course, if you were there in those moments in history you would have set everyone straight, right?

DCP wonders why folks on this board seem to have so much animosity towards him at times. Perhaps it is because he comes here and tries to represent this kind of nonsense as a product of scholarship, and is then offended when rational people call it for what it is.

But you are not a rational person. Most of your posts are illogical attacks on the LDS church.

[_Simon Belmont]

First jab with the MST, "ALL of these SCHOLARS have waaaahhhhhaaaaayy more EDUCATION than you and all KNOW more about LDS history/theology than you ever will, and they still believe!"

And you have no idea how powerful it is to know that.

We have a world-ranked University full of people like that.

But, of course, DrW believes that no one at BYU, BYU Hawaii, BYU Idaho, BYU Jerusalem, LDS Business College, or any of the professors at other colleges around the world who are LDS can be considered rational people.

They're all idiots. But not DrW.

[_DrW]

Seriously, is that what started Mormon polygamy? Hyrum asking Joseph about his dead wife??

This is a near perfect example of uniquely the Mormon apologist kind of ad hoc, "make it up as you go along" pseudo-justification for the appalling behavior of Joseph Smith and his ilk.

[_Themis]

And you have no idea how powerful it is to know that.

I suspect he does, just as experts expressing their testimonies of scientology, Catholics, etc do as well. I suspect he may understand it a bit better then you.

We have a world-ranked University full of people like that.

BYU is a good university, but all legitamate universities are world ranked. Do you know what BYU's rank is?

But, of course, DrW believes that no one at BYU, BYU Hawaii, BYU Idaho, BYU Jerusalem, LDS Business College, or any of the professors at other colleges around the world who are LDS can be considered rational people.

Very rational people can be very irrational in some areas. This is true for all of us.

[_DrW]

But, of course, DrW believes that no one at BYU, BYU Hawaii, BYU Idaho, BYU Jerusalem, LDS Business College, or any of the professors at other colleges around the world who are LDS can be considered rational people.

They're all idiots. But not DrW.

Simon,

I have worked in the past for and with a number of good scientists who were LDS, and I now have LDS scientists working for me.

One of the scientists I worked with was a Stake President. When he was pinned down in private conversation about the Church, he had no good answers for the hard questions about Mormonism or the troubling issues in Mormon history. He was content to just partition off this cog dis and go about his work. Had he faced and acted on the truth as he came to know it, his family, his identity in the community and his standing at Church would have all be sacrificed at the alter of intellectual honesty.

For him it was not worth the price. I cannot blame him, except to note if one is not willing to be honest with oneself in this life, then they cannot expect to live it to the fullest.

The issues that this Stake President could not understand and the doctrine he could not believe just went onto a "shelf". This individual served as Stake President for more than 10 years, and as far as I know, his shelf is still holding.

However the shelves of a lot of good scientists and engineers I have worked with have not held. They came tumbling down, spilling their rotten contents everywhere when the weight of evidence against the veracity of LDS truth claims on the shelf was more than the shelf could hold.

For some this breaking point was reached when the criminal conduct of the Church during the Prop 8 campaign had to be put on the shelf. For some it was finally setting down and reading some unvarnished Church history. For some, it was experiences on their missions, or the treatment of women, or blatant racism, or homophobia, and the list goes on.

I would venture to guess that all Mormons who are at least teenagers or older have such a shelf. If they do not, that means that they believe, without question, every teaching and doctrine of the Church, which strongly indicates that they have deficient critical thinking skills because the weight of credible physical evidence against the totality of Mormon doctrine, history, and beliefs is simply overwhelming.

Assuming that every Mormon has a shelf, then they are forced to simultaneously hold at least some conflicting beliefs. At the very least, this is a form of intellectual dishonesty. And in many I have known, the worldview associated with this kind of doublethink or partitioning rises to the level of delusion and/or magical thinking.

If you look up the definition of magical thinking, you will see that it is characterized by such features as false attribution of causality and an inappropriate assumption of correlation between the performance of ritual and certain outcomes.

So, Simon, we have the kinds of actions and beliefs that you yourself profess identified as magical thinking, and in the context of society as a whole, perhaps even as delusional.

And although our Mormon scholars can often function well in society, from my experience (with physical and life scientists and engineers at least), I would guess that many, if not most of them are dealing with serious underlying issues with when it comes to the real world.

And when someone who DCP identifies as a scholar makes a video explaining that polygamy (which was against the law then and is against the law now) is justified based on the myths in the Bible, and because a supernatural sky god appeared to Joseph Smith and told him so, even though this same sky god told the same Joseph Smith in his Book of Mormon that polygamy was forbidden, I think you would agree that such an individual has some problems with reality.

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon,

I have worked in the past for and with a number of good scientists who were LDS, and I now have LDS scientists working for me.

One of the scientists I worked with was a Stake President. When he was pinned down in private conversation about the Church, he had no good answers for the hard questions about Mormonism or the troubling issues in Mormon history. He was content to just partition off this cog dis and go about his work. Had he faced and acted on the truth as he came to know it, his family, his identity in the community and his standing at Church would have all be sacrificed at the alter of intellectual honesty.

Why do you believe that we have to have all the answers to be faithful? The historical "hard questions" matter very little in the scheme of things. If you accept that Joseph Smith saw what he said he saw and the coming about of the Book of Mormon, then all else is quite trivial in the proper perspective.

God certainly knows more than we do. God certainly understands things we aren't capable of understanding yet. Humans are capable of understanding more than an ant, too. It is the way of the universe. We must accept that there are just some things that we aren't able to understand yet.

For him it was not worth the price. I cannot blame him, except to note if one is not willing to be honest with oneself in this life, then they cannot expect to live it to the fullest.

Being honest does not mean automatically rejecting the church. It means understanding, to the best of our ability, the nature of God and our relationship with Him.

However the shelves of a lot of good scientists and engineers I have worked with have not held. They came tumbling down, spilling their rotten contents everywhere when the weight of evidence against the veracity of LDS truth claims on the shelf was more than the shelf could hold.

So, what you are saying here if I am correct is that these good scientists and engineers who left the Church know the truth, while the many good scientists and engineers who are faithful do not know the truth?

Well paint me green and call me Gumby, but what makes you and the scientists whom you know the sole deciders of truth?

For some this breaking point was reached when the criminal conduct of the Church during the Prop 8 campaign had to be put on the shelf. For some it was finally setting down and reading some unvarnished Church history. For some, it was experiences on their missions, or the treatment of women, or blatant racism, or homophobia, and the list goes on.

If these things were happening to the people you know, then I have to wonder what church they were actually involved in. It certainly doesn't sound like my church, and I've read and studied everything I could (both pro and con) for 20+ years. If you simply accept the writings of people like Rich Kelsey at face value, then you have a much larger problem on your hands.

I would venture to guess that all Mormons who are at least teenagers or older have such a shelf.

And that would be a sweeping generalization.

If they do not, that means that they believe, without question, every teaching and doctrine of the Church, which strongly indicates that they have deficient critical thinking skills because the weight of credible physical evidence against the totality of Mormon doctrine, history, and beliefs is simply overwhelming.

Actually, it isn't. Not at all. And certainly not more than any other church.

Assuming that every Mormon has a shelf,

A faulty assumption.

So, Simon, we have the kinds of actions and beliefs that you yourself profess identified as magical thinking, and in the context of society as a whole, perhaps even as delusional.

Your slippery slope you've constructed goes from somebody putting something on a "shelf" to being outright delusional. Are you for real?

And although our Mormon scholars can often function well in society, from my experience (with physical and life scientists and engineers at least), I would guess that many, if not most of them are dealing with serious underlying issues with when it comes to the real world.

Neither of us would know, since we cannot read minds. I base what I know on what people have said. Hundreds of them, at least, on Mormon Scholars Testify have testified of the truthfulness of the Church. Richard Bushman has said that the more he studied Joseph Smith for his biography, the more he knew it Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

And when someone who DCP identifies as a scholar makes a video explaining that polygamy (which was against the law then and is against the law now) is justified based on the myths in the Bible, and because a supernatural sky god appeared to Joseph Smith and told him so, even though this same sky god told the same Joseph Smith in his Book of Mormon that polygamy was forbidden, I think you would agree that such an individual has some problems with reality.

A scholar is someone who has intimate knowledge about a particular topic. No one can doubt that Dr. Truman Madsen was a scholar of the highest order.

[_harmony]

A scholar is someone who has intimate knowledge about a particular topic. No one can doubt that Dr. Truman Madsen was a scholar of the highest order.

Yes, but is he a scholar in what he's testifying about on MST, or is that not his field?

Exactly.

[_Yoda]

For him it was not worth the price. I cannot blame him, except to note if one is not willing to be honest with oneself in this life, then they cannot expect to live it to the fullest.

Please give your definition of "living life to the fullest". Your friend has a good family, a well-paying job he enjoys, friends, community....that sounds like "living life to the fullest" to me.

[_harmony]

For him it was not worth the price. I cannot blame him, except to note if one is not willing to be honest with oneself in this life, then they cannot expect to live it to the fullest.

Please give your definition of "living life to the fullest". Your friend has a good family, a well-paying job he enjoys, friends, community....that sounds like "living life to the fullest" to me.

Exactly, Liz.