Urim & Thummim NOT used to translate Book of Mormon...

[_Jaybear]

I have to agree with Vogel. Smith was not a self-deluded treasure seeker. He was either a true seer OR a con man.

I am sure we can find both today, and both will have their supporters who claim the same kind of stories. I do tend to think Joseph knew he could not really use the seer stone to find lost items.

If he was not self self deluded, then it follows that he knew that he could not find buried treasure by looking at rock in his hat.

I presume you realize that it no more possible to find buried treasure by looking at a rock in your hat, than it is to flap your arms and fly yourself to South America.

Vogel's use of the word "OR" was just a subtle way to call Smith a con man.

[_Themis]

If he was not self self deluded, then it follows that he knew that he could not find buried treasure by looking at rock in his hat.

I presume you realize that it no more possible to find buried treasure by looking at a rock in your hat, than it is to flap your arms and fly yourself to South America.

Vogel's use of the word "OR" was just a subtle way to call Smith a con man.

I guess what I found odd was Vogel's use of the word proof, which I think is incorrect. Joseph's true ability, and I would suggest most other seer stone users, was not in seeing anything, but in convincing others that he could.

[_Jaybear]

I guess what I found odd was Vogel's use of the word proof, which I think is incorrect. Joseph's true ability, and I would suggest most other seer stone users, was not in seeing anything, but in convincing others that he could.

I understand. But what I find odd is that intelligent, educated people could even for a moment entertain the possibility that someone could find buried treasure by peering at a stone in a hat.

[_Fence Sitter]

I understand. But what I find odd is that intelligent, educated people could even for a moment entertain the possibility that someone could find buried treasure by peering at a stone in a hat.

Which is why, for the most part, the Church has been reluctant to talk about many aspects of its own history. Which is why BKP thinks historians are preoccupied with the truth. Which is why the church has correlation. Which why many TBMs will instinctively react to any thing of this nature as anti-Mormon.

[_harmony]

I understand. But what I find odd is that intelligent, educated people could even for a moment entertain the possibility that someone could find buried treasure by peering at a stone in a hat.

Intelligent, educated are often just as likely as anyone else to unquestionably accept that which is traditional to their tribe/family. And to resent it when the unreliability of that unquestioned acceptance is pointed out.

[_malkie]

I guess what I found odd was Vogel's use of the word proof, which I think is incorrect. Joseph's true ability, and I would suggest most other seer stone users, was not in seeing anything, but in convincing others that he could.

I understand. But what I find odd is that intelligent, educated people could even for a moment entertain the possibility that someone could find buried treasure by peering at a stone in a hat.

If I recall correctly, they not only talk about it, they hold it up as a model of how Joseph Smith learned to use such a stone as "training wheels".

[_thews]

...as certified by Brant Gardner

Gardner Notes: We all know that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Book of Mormon—except he didn't. The Book of Mormon mentions interpreters, but not the Urim and Thummim. It was the Book of Mormon interpreters which were given to Joseph with the plates. When Moroni took back the interpreters after the loss of the 116 manuscript pages, Joseph completed the translation with one of his seer stones. Until after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim belonged to the Bible and the Bible only. The Urim and Thummim became part of the story when it was presented within and to the Great Tradition. Eventually, even Joseph Smith used Urim and Thummim indiscriminately as labels generically representing either the Book of Mormon interpreters or the seer stone used during translation.(From FairWiki)

If you were to walk into Church next Sunday and survey the ward membership about how the Golden Plates were 'translated' how many people would state, incorrectly, that it was by using the Urim & Thummim - by which they would mean the magic spectacles?

The one thing I like about Brant Gardner is his intellectual honesty. He believes in Joseph Smith's seer stones and Joseph Smith's ability to see hidden objects before the Book of Mormon. What FairMormon does, in a failed attempt to diminish the facts, is to provide a lot of circular reasoning mixed with incorrect conclusions to confuse the reader. The intent (in my opinion) is to supposedly answer the questioning member into thinking the Urim and Thummim and seer stones are the same thing... they are not. For example:

Book of Mormon Translation
http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Translation

Conclusion

It is important to remember that what we do know for certain is that the translation of the Book of Mormon was carried out "by the gift and power of God." We do not know the exact method of translation. Many have offered their own opinions, but it should be kept in mind that these opinions are given by people who never performed the translation process itself: They can only report on what they observed the Prophet doing at the time. Whether Joseph used the "original" Urim and Thummim or the seer stone to perform this sacred task is beside the point, and it does not diminish the power of the resulting work. One should read the Book of Mormon itself and evaluate its message rather than get wrapped up in the detail of its exact method of translation.

What was the "Urim and Thummim" used by Joseph to translate the plates?
http://www.fairwiki.org/Book_of_Mormon/ ... nd_Thummim

Question

Joseph Smith used both the Nephite Interpreters and his own seer stone during the translation process, yet we only hear of the "Urim and Thummim" being used for this purpose. What is the relationship between the Nephite Interpreters, Joseph's own seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Many eyewitness accounts confirm that Joseph employed his seer stone during part of the translation process. Martin Harris states that Joseph used the Nephite interpreters and then later switched to using the seer stone "for convenience."

Joseph Smith/Seer stones/Used for Book of Mormon translation
http://pt.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/S ... ranslation

Joseph was given a set of Nephite interpreters along with the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was produced. In addition, Joseph already possessed and utilized several seer stones. Although Joseph began translating the Book of Mormon using the Nephite interpreters, he later switched to using one of his seer stones to complete the translation.

When Fairmormon states "We do not know the exact method of translation" which is then followed by "Many eyewitness accounts confirm that Joseph employed his seer stone during part of the translation process" what's missing is which part was translated using the different objects.

From LDS.org on the D&C
http://LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/10.4?lang=eng

Section 10
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, in the summer of 1828 (see History of the Church, 1:20–23).

1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

The original Book of commandments (note the date in 1829) did not mention the Urim and Thummim, but it was retroactively put in years later in 1833:

http://www.irr.org/mit/changing-scripture.html

BC 9:1, p. 22 — Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them, and you also lost your gift at the same time …
[Harmony, Pennsylvania May 1829]

The main point to all of this, is that Joseph Smith was supposedly punished for losing the lost 116 pages, and part of losing his "gift" was losing the Nephite interpreters, which then gave way to using seer stones. The use of "conflate" to claim they (Urim and Thummim/seer stones/Nephite interpreters) are the same thing doesn't negate the fact that the whole breastplate and supposed glasses were in fact taken back.

Here's Dr. Peterson's take on why members of the LDS church don't know much about its history and the incorrect translation methods used in the artwork:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11896&hilit=used+seer+stones&start=21

What are the reasons the church does not accurately show how the translation took place?

Here are three reasons:

1) Most members don't know much about Church history.

2) Mormon artists and their editors are pretty representative, in this sense, of the general membership.

3) Artistic representations of historical events are often quite inaccurate, in and out of the Church.

[Guest]

...
Here's Dr. Peterson's take on why members of the LDS church don't know much about its history and the incorrect translation methods used in the artwork:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... s&start=21

What are the reasons the church does not accurately show how the translation took place?

Here are three reasons:

1) Most members don't know much about Church history.

2) Mormon artists and their editors are pretty representative, in this sense, of the general membership.

3) Artistic representations of historical events are often quite inaccurate, in and out of the Church.

Edited to make some sense - I hope - since the pre-edit post pretty much didn't (;=(

Is this, perhaps, a fourth?

4) Knowing 3), 2), and 1), the Church has no interest in fixing the situation.

by the way, for such publications as Primary manuals, who is responsible for ensuring the accuracy of the content, including illustrations?
Are these people whose knowledge of Church history is "pretty representative, in this sense, of the general membership"?
If so, would it not make more sense to have people with a superior level of knowledge vet the content?

Or is it just the case that accuracy is not seen as important?

[_stemelbow]

Hey guys, I have a question.

When was the first recorded event that Joseph Smith used a seer stone?

Thanks in advance.

[_Fence Sitter]

Hey guys, I have a question.

When was the first recorded event that Joseph Smith used a seer stone?

Thanks in advance.

Is your question limited to the use of a stone for religious purposes (seer stone) or are you looking for the earliest use of a stone (peep) by Joseph Smith to find lost or hidden items?