Atheists a minority?

[_CaliforniaKid]

Any number of studies have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god.

On the other hand, educated people are also more likely to attend church.

Far from being amoral as one believing poster stated on another thread (with the clear implication that atheists were also immoral), it turns out that atheists and agnostics commit far fewer crimes than their believing counterparts. Less than 1% of the US prison population is 'atheist' vs. about 10% in the general population.

First of all, the number of self-identified atheists in the general population is much less than 10%. Secondly, the surge in people identifying as atheists has occurred in the last ten years or so, and mostly among young people (some of them still juveniles). Presumably it would take a while for the prison population to catch up. And thirdly, atheists may be avoiding lives of crime because their education level makes crime unnecessary rather than because they're more moral.

In Robert Putnam and David Campbell's new book, they show that church attenders are better neighbors and citizens by nearly every measure, with one exception: tolerance. Church attenders are much less tolerant and more authority-oriented than irreligious people.

[_DrW]

Any number of studies have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god.

On the other hand, educated people are also more likely to attend church.

I know a lot of atheists and agnostics who attend Church.

Far from being amoral as one believing poster stated on another thread (with the clear implication that atheists were also immoral), it turns out that atheists and agnostics commit far fewer crimes than their believing counterparts. Less than 1% of the US prison population is 'atheist' vs. about 10% in the general population.

First of all, the number of self-identified atheists in the general population is much less than 10%.

Don't disagree and your statement is not relevant to mine. Please note that the reference includes atheists and agnostics (not just self-identified atheists.)

Secondly, the surge in people identifying as atheists has occurred in the last ten years or so, and mostly among young people (some of them still juveniles). Presumably it would take a while for the prison population to catch up.

Pretty shaky.

And thirdly, atheists may be avoiding lives of crime because their education level makes crime unnecessary rather than because they're more moral.

More reasonable that your last suggestion.

In Robert Putnam and David Campbell's new book, they show that church attenders are better neighbors and citizens by nearly every measure, with one exception: tolerance. Church attenders are much less tolerant and more authority-oriented than irreligious people.

That is (exactly) like saying that militant Islamic Fundamentalists are more authority oriented and score well by nearly every measure, except tolerance.

I have lived and worked in several Islamic countries, including Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, and Malaysia. Some of the nicest people you would want to meet (male or female) are fundamentalists. However, scratch the facade or make an ill-considered statement regarding Islam, or its culture or beliefs, and you will see just how tolerant they can be.

I have had employees who were forced to leave the country because of an innocent (admittedly ill-considered) comment in front the wrong person. As we all know (or should know), in Saudi Arabia and to a lesser extent in other Islamic countries and cultures, young females can be legally murdered by their religious families who score high on all of the neighborly criteria except tolerance.

[_subgenius]

....There is no community of atheists .......[snip]......... More atheists than Mormons, I would bet.

2 excellent notions, especially the first, ergo no real principles beyond self-centered-ness.
however, the idea of atheist being a minority, as i propose, is relevant only in terms of what it means, historically, to be religious versus "not" religious. Thus the idea that there are "more" atheist than Mormons is irrelevant, and a little foolish, since it is admitted that one can not accurately count atheists. But, alas, another fine example of atheistic speculation in favor of atheistic speculation.
Nevertheless, history has proven again and again that regardless of actual population, the survival rate of religious folk tends to be better than atheist folk.....i would bet.

[_Buffalo]

2 excellent notions, especially the first, ergo no real principles beyond self-centered-ness.

I can think of nothing more self-centered than imagining that someday billions of people will fall at their feet worshiping you. Or that god is going to reward you for your obedience and punish everyone who isn't like you.

[_subgenius]

Any number of studies have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god.

simply not true. though "some" studies will confirm your premise, it is the exception rather than the rule.

Far from being amoral as one believing poster stated on another thread (with the clear implication that atheists were also immoral),

as that poster, i reject your conclusion. there was no clear or obscured implication, i even stated "not immoral".

it turns out that atheists and agnostics commit far fewer crimes than their believing counterparts.

not true again, and besides morality and crime are distinct from each other. Ever steal a loaf of bread to feed the hungry?

Less than 1% of the US prison population is 'atheist' vs. about 10% in the general population.

wow? yet those same statistics confirm that most of the religious population in prison "found" religion after the conviction...the atheist got caught, but the believer serves the time.

And the Divorce Rate among atheists and agnostics is 21% vs. 30% for Jews, 27% for Born Again Christians, and 24% for other Christians.

this is just a plain ridiculous assertion. you neglect the marriage rate of each, atheists are less likely to even get married.

(I find the last statistic interesting since the divorce rate in Utah is the fourth or fifth highest in the country, and has been up by more than 10% in recent years, while rates in most States have remained stable declined over the same period.)

:facepalm:

Scource

the irony of "empire" being used with atheist...now that is good pipe dreaming!

all in all, what a confounded mess of statistics and speculation. Which really just bolsters the statistic that atheists are not a smart as they think they are.

[Jersey Girl]

An atheist would have a harder time getting elected as President of the United States than a Mormon. Relative size of the minority group would be less important than general acceptance. What I think you guys need is an I am an Atheist media campaign. Good luck.

[_Themis]

2 excellent notions, especially the first, ergo no real principles beyond self-centered-ness.

Interesting that you can believe things so obviously wrong to even most people who do believe in some God or Gods. Atheists do have many of the same principles as other groups, not that atheists are really an identifiable group save for just not believing in any God.

however, the idea of atheist being a minority, as i propose, is relevant only in terms of what it means, historically, to be religious versus "not" religious.

You may have missed Stak's post letting people know that many atheists are religious.

Nevertheless, history has proven again and again that regardless of actual population, the survival rate of religious folk tends to be better than atheist folk.....i would bet.

Might be hard to test. To many factors, especially since many of them can be part of religious groups.

[_Quasimodo]

2 excellent notions, especially the first, ergo no real principles beyond self-centered-ness.

Odd you would say that. I suppose there are some self-centered atheists, but no more than in the population in general. I've found that atheists (since they have no ax to grind) are generally less insecure than most.

Narcissism (being self-centered) is an expression of insecurity. I find insecurity is a trait more often found in those who need to profess a strong religious belief.

however, the idea of atheist being a minority, as i propose, is relevant only in terms of what it means, historically, to be religious versus "not" religious. Thus the idea that there are "more" atheist than Mormons is irrelevant, and a little foolish, since it is admitted that one can not accurately count atheists. But, alas, another fine example of atheistic speculation in favor of atheistic speculation.

Foolish? I really don't understand what you are trying to say.

Nevertheless, history has proven again and again that regardless of actual population, the survival rate of religious folk tends to be better than atheist folk.....i would bet.

Only the good die young.

[_DrW]

subgenius,

I stated above that "Any number of studies have shown that the more educated an individual, the less likely they are to be religious or believe in a god", to which you replied:

simply not true. though "some" studies will confirm your premise, it is the exception rather than the rule.

Looks as if you have been reading reviews of the literature generated by Christian apologists. Instead of taking the word of apologists, one should look at the available studies weighted according to the strength and validity of their design and their population size.

Rather than look at a small cross section of the population at a given point in time (such as was done in the 1998 BYU study you probably have in mind showing that more educated Mormons are more likely to attend Church than are less educated Mormons - big surprise), longitudinal studies look at relatively large populations over long periods of time. When it comes to epidemiology, these kinds of longitudinal studies are the "gold standard".

One example of this kind of study is the well known Nurses' Health Study, which is responsible for any number of important findings related to diseases and their risk factors in females. Another such study is the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth, which looked at large populations (n >10,000) over time (1979-1994). Data from this study in the US, as well similar data from more than 130 other countries, shows that IQ is inversely correlated with religious belief. If you doubt the strength of correlation, have a look at the plotted data from the study looking at IQ vs belief in God in 137 countries by Lynn, Harvey and Nyborg (2008):


The strongest studies on the largest populations, as well as the overall weight of evidence of the relevant studies looking at this question, show that IQ correlates negatively with belief in God. Sorry.

Perhaps you are confused by a few studies that look at "emotional intelligence" and not IQ. The latter studies (which are the best the apologists could come up with) have been pretty well discredited.

With regard to the BYU study mentioned above, it seems clear that the study is confounded by socioeconomic status and income. More highly educated Mormons make more money and can thus better afford the price of admission to attend Church (tithes and offerings).

Given this information, the rest of your argument would seem to fall apart, and so will not be addressed.

[_subgenius]

In another thread, and many threads in general, people claim that atheists are an extreme minority. While this is true, I find it odd that people are saying this on message board dealing with Mormonism- which is a larger minority both in the USA, as well as the world at large.

By "larger minority" you actually mean "smaller minority", right? According to the ranking shown below*, Mormonism is a much smaller minority.

When bundling secularists, secular humanists, agnostics, etc. with atheists (sort of like bundling all of the Christian sects together) atheists and secularists rank 4th place in world population overall. Mormonism comes in at lucky 13. Note that one can subtract Mormonism from Christianity without affecting the number 1 world ranking of Christianity.

1. Christianity: 2 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
5. Buddhism: 360 million
6. Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
7. primal-indigenous: 150 million
8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
9. Sikhism: 23 million
10. Juche: 19 million
11. Spiritism: 14 million
12. Judaism: 14 million
13. Mormonism: 14 million (Claimed)**
14. Baha'i: 6 million
15. Jainism: 4 million
16. Shinto: 4 million
17. Cao Dai: 3 million
18. Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
22. Scientology: 600 thousand
23. Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

*Source: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

**Mormonism was shown both by claimed adherents (ranking mine) and as bundled with Christianity.

if you are going to "break out" Mormonism from Christianity then you must do likewise with atheists from Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist, otherwise your assertions are flawed and illogical.
Besides, is not the point of the argument about only 2 groups? religious versus non-religious, of which there are only 2 ranks...1st to religious....2nd to non-religious, and the latter, historically, suffers; so logically speaking it is not beneficial to associate with them.