All creeds an abomination?

[_bcspace]

That is why every church that is not the LDS Church is part of the church of the Devil.

I can't believe you just said that.

Believe it. There is no one specific nonLDS church that is the church of the Devil, it is all of them. That does not mean their members or leaders are directly in the devil's pay or are not good people. But they accomplish the devil's work by preaching and believing doctrines that do not lead to eternal life. There is a reason why the gospel is preached in the afterlife and that fact further identifies all nonLDS churches as part of the church of the Devil.

I only wish LDS missionaries would be that direct when attempting to gain converts, instead of the "all churches have some truths but we have all the truth" pablum they try to pass off so that they don't seem so extreme.

I never used that. I always made sure to include JS-H 1:19. Had many convert baptisms for an english speaking mission. That was in the mid 80's and the Church was just beginning to really get into the message of "we are just like you". By the late 90's, the Church realized this did not work and abandoned it.

[_Dad of a Mormon]

I only wish LDS missionaries would be that direct when attempting to gain converts, instead of the "all churches have some truths but we have all the truth" pablum they try to pass off so that they don't seem so extreme.

I never used that. I always made sure to include Joseph Smith-H 1:19. Had many convert baptisms for an english speaking mission. That was in the mid 80's and the Church was just beginning to really get into the message of "we are just like you". By the late 90's, the Church realized this did not work and abandoned it.

I think you should be respected for at least being honest. And it really worked for you? My suspicion would be that you would have gained fewer short-term converts and possibly more long-term converts. If you can convince people that everyone outside of the LDS church is of the devil and they are still willing to join, then they really will be committed to the church.

[Guest]

I only wish LDS missionaries would be that direct when attempting to gain converts, instead of the "all churches have some truths but we have all the truth" pablum they try to pass off so that they don't seem so extreme.

You just can't win many converts by saying we are just like you. If we are just like you, what reason is there to join us? None at all. The Church went that route from the mid 80s to late 90's and converts dropped significantly. We are now "raising the bar" but I think it's not being done correctly and that is also holding us back. What we have done is created a bunch or robot missionaries who have no joy in the gospel and have not enough variety to reach the great variety of people out there.

I think you should be respected for at least being honest. And it really worked for you?

Should have worked for everyone. JS-H-1:19 was one of the references given in the discussions. I'll have to check Preach My Gospel to see if it's still there.

My suspicion would be that you would have gained fewer short-term converts and possibly more long-term converts.

All of "my converts" (about 44 in total) are currently active as far as I can tell. One is a SP in Honolulu, one served a mission in Korea, one was a JW, one was a Jew, and several were erstwhile homosexuals returning to the Church for example. But I wouldn't pin it on this alone. Many of them had great spiritual experiences and LDS friends before we even made contact.

If you can convince people that everyone outside of the LDS church is of the devil

I have never said or implied this. I merely have taught, as is the implication of LDS doctrine, that all nonLDS churches are part of the church of the Devil for the reasons stated above. Very few people in this world themselves are actually "of the devil".

and they are still willing to join, then they really will be committed to the church.

You have to be sure not to baptize anyone who is not committed to going to Church every Sunday and paying tithing and living the WoW and law of chasity. Those are the key factors for long term retention (in addition to having friends and family in the Church) imho. I have refused baptism for every teen or adult indiviudal not already committed to those things whenever I've had a say in the matter.

If the missionaries bring to me someone for baptism who they just met two or four weeks ago and has attended Church only once, it's an absolute no go. If they bring a young person to me whose parents may be members but are not active and won't be bringing that young person to Church, it's an absolute no go. If the parents aren't willing to go or teach it in the home, how committed will this young person really be? Wait till they are an adult in that case or can bring themselves. I have ruffled many feathers with this, but ultimately most people seem to calm down and see the wisdom in it.

[_Fence Sitter]

My mission president was William R Bradford, who at the time was also a General Authority (Seventy). He taught us to knock on doors, teach the first vision, the apostasy and restoration, then challenge people to be baptized, all the first visit if we felt the spirit. I was responsible for somewhere between 100 to 200 baptisms while on my mission of which probably 95% are no longer active.

At least these people got the chance to accept the gospel while here on earth so they can be condemned for the rest of eternity for rejecting it later on. What a great system that clearly shows a benevolent loving God who cares for all of his children.

[_bcspace]

At least these people got the chance to accept the gospel while here on earth so they can be condemned for the rest of eternity for rejecting it later on. What a great system that clearly shows a benevolent loving God who cares for all of his children.

Indeed. But who can say what a chance entails? We know the gospel is preached in the afterlife so everyone can be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 4:6) so imperfection here will be amended there. These experiences and failures make us grow and become refined even such that Malachi 3:17. That is what the Atonement is for so I would not give up on the ninety and nine that you worry about. But you have to also consider Matthew 7:14 and Matthew 13:18-23.

[_Buffalo]

At least these people got the chance to accept the gospel while here on earth so they can be condemned for the rest of eternity for rejecting it later on. What a great system that clearly shows a benevolent loving God who cares for all of his children.

Indeed. But who can say what a chance entails? We know the gospel is preached in the afterlife so everyone can be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 4:6) so imperfection here will be amended there. These experiences and failures make us grow and become refined even such that Malachi 3:17. That is what the Atonement is for so I would not give up on the ninety and nine that you worry about. But you have to also consider Matthew 7:14 and Matthew 13:18-23.

Thus invalidating the whole point of the trial of mortal existence.

[_Fence Sitter]

Indeed. But who can say what a chance entails? We know the gospel is preached in the afterlife so everyone can be judged by the same standards (1 Peter 4:6) so imperfection here will be amended there. These experiences and failures make us grow and become refined even such that Malachi 3:17. That is what the Atonement is for so I would not give up on the ninety and nine that you worry about. But you have to also consider Matthew 7:14 and Matthew 13:18-23.

You have to be sure not to baptize anyone who is not committed to going to Church every Sunday and paying tithing and living the WoW and law of chasity. Those are the key factors for long term retention (in addition to having friends and family in the Church) imho. I have refused baptism for every teen or adult indiviudal not already committed to those things whenever I've had a say in the matter.

I see just a slight contradiction here. Since you cannot determine what a 'chance entails' perhaps you have denied someone their 'chance' yourself. If Bradford was right we should just stand on corners with billboards that say Joseph Smith was a prophet and give everyone who drives by a 'chance'.

[_Quasimodo]

Believe it. There is no one specific nonLDS church that is the church of the Devil, it is all of them. That does not mean their members or leaders are directly in the devil's pay or are not good people. But they accomplish the devil's work by preaching and believing doctrines that do not lead to eternal life. There is a reason why the gospel is preached in the afterlife and that fact further identifies all nonLDS churches as part of the church of the Devil.

Funny. I don't believe in the Devil, but if I were to look for him in human history, I might think about someone who was:

A self confessed liar and con man.

A womanizer.

A sexual deviant.

A thief.

A hypocrite.

A manipulator.

A self proclaimed prophet.

A child molester.

A leader of a religion that would lead the innocent away from God.

Any guesses as to who this might be?

[_bcspace]

Any guesses as to who this might be?

Obviously not Joseph Smith thank goodness.

I see just a slight contradiction here. Since you cannot determine what a 'chance entails' perhaps you have denied someone their 'chance' yourself.

One can't expect perfection and answers that apply to all people. That's not the purpose of the gospel which deals with fallible people who then may receive grace.

If Bradford was right we should just stand on corners with billboards that say Joseph Smith was a prophet and give everyone who drives by a 'chance'.

I personally don't believe that constitutes a chance. The Church does not define it as far as I can tell.

[_Fence Sitter]

One can't expect perfection and answers that apply to all people. That's not the purpose of the gospel which deals with fallible people who then may receive grace.

Then wouldn't you be better off allowing any one who wants to be baptized their 'chance' and letting God figure out the rest?