Adam and Eve?

[_contend4faith]

Is that the reason Children are not accountable for their sin, and considered innocent before 8 years old? If so, then why do children die? They die bodily just as we do, and the Fall introduced the wages of sin and that is death. So I'm suggesting that the shadow of death that fell upon all men, is suggesting that no one is innocent. Not even a baby, it is at emnity with God from the get go because of the curse of sin brought into the world by Adam and Eve. The wages of that sin is death, and that is a contradiction to say a baby is innocent, it still possesses the same fallen nature and original sin.

[_Buffalo]

Is that the reason Children are not accountable for their sin, and considered innocent before 8 years old? If so, then why do children die? They die bodily just as we do, and the Fall introduced the wages of sin and that is death. So I'm suggesting that the shadow of death that fell upon all men, is suggesting that no one is innocent. Not even a baby, it is at emnity with God from the get go because of the curse of sin brought into the world by Adam and Eve. The wages of that sin is death, and that is a contradiction to say a baby is innocent, it still possesses the same fallen nature and original sin.

An excellent summation of why that doctrine is sick and perverted.

[_just me]

Is that the reason Children are not accountable for their sin, and considered innocent before 8 years old? If so, then why do children die? They die bodily just as we do, and the Fall introduced the wages of sin and that is death. So I'm suggesting that the shadow of death that fell upon all men, is suggesting that no one is innocent. Not even a baby, it is at emnity with God from the get go because of the curse of sin brought into the world by Adam and Eve. The wages of that sin is death, and that is a contradiction to say a baby is innocent, it still possesses the same fallen nature and original sin.

An excellent summation of why that doctrine is sick and perverted.

Good point.

I will add that the scriptural reason that children and unaccountable persons (like the mentally disabled) are saved is because the atonement of Christ fully covers them. They get the CK free of charge because that seemed more fair then sending them to hell before they could do something about it.

I love how the article of faith says that men will be punished for their own sin and not for Adam's transgression, yet if death and painful childbirth and having to work for our food is the curse given to A&E then we most certainly ARE being punished for his transgression.

[_Buffalo]

Good point.

I will add that the scriptural reason that children and unaccountable persons (like the mentally disabled) are saved is because the atonement of Christ fully covers them. They get the CK free of charge because that seemed more fair then sending them to hell before they could do something about it.

I love how the article of faith says that men will be punished for their own sin and not for Adam's transgression, yet if death and painful childbirth and having to work for our food is the curse given to A&E then we most certainly ARE being punished for his transgression.

Not to mention the "curse of Cain" nonsense.

[_subgenius]

I am not seeing the perfect bit.

but you get the "sinless", correct?
"perfect" may be a little arguable,
but consider Genesis 1:31
The original Hebrew for "good" in that context, is the superlative, meaning that it was as good as it could be, or rather everything was formed to the utmost of perfection of its own nature.

So, by that justification we see that at that point in time all that God had created was seen as "good", or perfect. The 7th day sees all things "perfected".

[_subgenius]

Is that the reason Children are not accountable for their sin, and considered innocent before 8 years old? If so, then why do children die? They die bodily just as we do, and the Fall introduced the wages of sin and that is death. So I'm suggesting that the shadow of death that fell upon all men, is suggesting that no one is innocent. Not even a baby, it is at emnity with God from the get go because of the curse of sin brought into the world by Adam and Eve. The wages of that sin is death, and that is a contradiction to say a baby is innocent, it still possesses the same fallen nature and original sin.

The church doctrine is pretty clear on this topic. (reference Moroni 8:8-16)
Before the age of 8 a child is not capable of committing any sin. This has no regard for being born "innocent", but simply speaks to accountability.

Now the article of faith speaks to "punishment", and for that no man is punished for Adam's sin. Death is a wage, most certainly, and is not necessarily "punishment" in this transitory world we live in today.

Be careful not to confuse spiritual death with temporal death, which appears to be the case.

[_bcspace]

Well then, we believe the same as all other Christians believe, although it is neither what the Bible nor the Book of Moses say. Very strange...

Not exactly. See 2 Nephi 2 which gives details about Adam and Eve other christians don't have. Also, most other christians as far as I know, believe that eating the fruit was a mistake. However, the Bible tells us that this was part of the plan (1 Peter 1:19-20) because Christ was foreordained overcome the effects of the Fall which is what LDS believe.

[_bcspace]

the book of moses (as well as genesis, of course) also makes a pretty clear case for the garden of eden being in the middle east. or did illinois used to be known as assyria?

The rivers named do not have to be the same rivers by that name today. However, the verses used to show that the garden was in Missouri do not actually say the garden was in Missouri. It merely identifies the place where Adam gathered his posterity and blesed them three years before his death some 900 years after the Fall.

Is that the reason Children are not accountable for their sin, and considered innocent before 8 years old? If so, then why do children die? They die bodily just as we do, and the Fall introduced the wages of sin and that is death. So I'm suggesting that the shadow of death that fell upon all men, is suggesting that no one is innocent. Not even a baby, it is at emnity with God from the get go because of the curse of sin brought into the world by Adam and Eve. The wages of that sin is death, and that is a contradiction to say a baby is innocent, it still possesses the same fallen nature and original sin.

Not sure I understand the question here but I would see Moses 6:53-68.

[_paulfisher]

Mormon's also believe that:
- Adam and Eve were literally the first man and woman
- that they were 'created' circa 4,000 BC
- that they lived in the Garden of Eden which was in Missouri
- that Adam knowingly fell because Eve had fallen and he knew that God required him to fall too as part of the Plan of Salavation. So Adam didn't sin at all.
- they believe that Adam is the angel Michael despite the fact that they also believe Joseph Smith saw Adam AND Michael in a vision.

It looks as if there are contradictions here although when dealing with a man who calls himself a prophet who says differently and we as humans like what we hear it doesn't seem to matter.

I will mention the Scriptures that talk about Adam and Eve.

In Gen 3:8 God tells us Adam and Eve hid themselves from Him. I would think that if they knew the Plan of Salvation at this point, they would not have been afraid. Also in verse 12 Adam blames Eve for eating and giving to him the fruit. Again, if Adam was suppose to already know the Plan of Salvation at this point, he would not have said that.

Then in the next verse Eve told God that it was the serpent that beguiled her i.e. she blamed the serpent. Again, if she knew the Plan of Salvation at this point she would not have tried to put the blame of her obvious disobedience on the serpent.

Let the Scriptures tell us why: God tells us, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." (1Jn 2:16)

In Gen 3:6 God lets us know this: "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food [Lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [Lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The most powerful Lust of all - the Lust of the heart, the Pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat [Thievery], and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

God is making sure that we realize that Adam and Eve were created human carnal and lustful beings right from the beginning. We are created sinning machines and there was never a "fall". The only sin that they were held accountable for was the sin of disobeying a commandment of God.

Many Bible translations do not use the correct aorist tense of the Hebrew and Greek languages. We were not created in the image of God. The correct reading of Gen 1:27 is "And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them." (Concordant Literal Version)

Amazing how an incorrect translation can effect the truth. We are being created in the image of God. It is a process that we go through all our lives and for most of us, into the next life (resurrection of judgment) as we all are purged, purified and refined through the "burning judgment" of chastening to become humble to our God in order to enter His Kingdom.

I might ad here that all two billion Christians including us Mormons (see Joseph's Moses chapter four) are deceived (by God Himself) to the truth of the Scriptures i.e. we can read the Scriptures over and over all our lives yet if God has blinded us, we will not see the truth.

[_Madison54]

The rivers named do not have to be the same rivers by that name today. However, the verses used to show that the garden was in Missouri do not actually say the garden was in Missouri. It merely identifies the place where Adam gathered his posterity and blesed them three years before his death some 900 years after the Fall.

But Joseph Smith did state that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri. There's record of how he explained his understanding of Genesis and the location of Eden during a trip through Missouri in 1838:

"Shortly after his arrival Joseph rowed up the Grand River to Lyman Wight’s ferry to explore land on the north bank in Daviess County [Missouri]. On a high bluff overlooking the river someone in the party discovered the ruins of what seemed to be an altar and excitedly led the prophet to it. After examining it Joseph stood silent, his eyes sweeping over the prairie that rolled away beneath him....The glory of the scene made Joseph heady as with new wine. 'This is the valley of God in which Adam blessed his children,' he said, 'and upon this very altar Adam himself offered up sacrifices to Jehovah....we will lay out a city which shall be called Adam-ondi-Ahman. Here Adam, the Ancient of Days, shall come to visit his people....' "

And...Apostle John A. Widtsoe stated:
"Latter-day Saints know, through modern revelation, that the Garden of Eden was on the North American continent and that Adam and Eve began their conquest of the earth in the upper part of what is now the state of Missouri. It seems very probable that the children of our first earthly parents moved down along the fertile, pleasant lands of the Mississippi valley."

Also....from Apostle Wilford Woodruff's Journal:
"Again Presdet Young said Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson Co Missouri, & when Adam was driven out of the garden of Eden He went about 40 miles to the Place which we Named Adam Ondi Ahman, & there built an Altar of Stone & offered Sacrifize. That Altar remains to this day. I saw it as Adam left it as did many others, & through all the revolutions of the world that Altar had not been disturbed. Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled & was translated it was whare the gulf of Mexico now is. It left that gulf a body of water."

LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie gives this information about the location of the Garden of Eden:
"ADAM-ONDI-AHMAN

Adam was the first man of all men; Ahman is one of the names by which God was known to Adam. Adam-ondi-Ahman, a name carried over from the pure Adamic language into English, is one for which we have not been given a revealed, literal translation. As near as we can judge -- and this view comes down from the early brethren who associated with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who was the first one to use the name in this dispensation -- Adam-ondi-Ahman means the place or land of God where Adam dwelt.

Apparently the area included was a large one; at least, the revelations speak of the land, the valley, and the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman. They tell us that Christ himself "established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman" (D. & C. 78:15-16), and that it included the place now known as Spring Hill, Daviess County, Missouri. (D. & C. 116.)"