Why did God want plural marriages between 1844 and 1890?

[_bcspace]

I think I get your point, but could you help me better understand how the polygamy the Church practiced in the 1840's, 50's, 60's, etc. would have led to more children being raised in strong, active, believing families?

No, I don't think it matters. Just because there is one reason listed in Jacob 2:30 doesn't mean it's the only possible reason.

[_Investigator]

I think I get your point, but could you help me better understand how the polygamy the Church practiced in the 1840's, 50's, 60's, etc. would have led to more children being raised in strong, active, believing families?

No, I don't think it matters. Just because there is one reason listed in Jacob 2:30 doesn't mean it's the only possible reason.

So what do you think the reason was?

I mean the practice only lasted about 46 years, an angel was said to have threatened Joseph with death if he didn't institute it, it lead to misunderstanding, disaffection, and persecution, and when it was finally abolished it led to schismatic groups that are still causing the Church PR problems.

If it wasn't to "raise seed" to Himself, why do you think God instituted this practice (and then abolished it 46 years latter)?

If it was to raise up seed to Himself, how did the practice of polygamy do that?

Please, I'm really trying to understand this.

[_Drifting]

No, I don't think it matters. Just because there is one reason listed in Jacob 2:30 doesn't mean it's the only possible reason.

So what do you think the reason was?

I mean the practice only lasted about 46 years, an angel was said to have threatened Joseph with death if he didn't institute it, it lead to misunderstanding, disaffection, and persecution, and when it was finally abolished it led to schismatic groups that are still causing the Church PR problems.

If it wasn't to "raise seed" to Himself, why do you think God instituted this practice (and then abolished it 46 years latter)?

If it was to raise up seed to Himself, how did the practice of polygamy do that?

Please, I'm really trying to understand this.

I think polygamy is best explained as either; God, recognising that Joseph had an overactive gland in his nether regions, acted as his wingman; Or because Joseph, like Warren, used religion to facilitate his own randiness and blamed God for it.

These answers are the best fit with all the available facts.

[_Yoda]

I think I get your point, but could you help me better understand how the polygamy the Church practiced in the 1840's, 50's, 60's, etc. would have led to more children being raised in strong, active, believing families?

No, I don't think it matters. Just because there is one reason listed in Jacob 2:30 doesn't mean it's the only possible reason.

I am also interested in what some of these other possible reasons may be. One theory that I have heard a lot is that polygamy, or rather plural marriage, had to be reinstated as part of the restoration of all things. Since it was restored, the practice could be suspended for the good of the Church, which it was, with the incorporation of the Manifesto, but that plural marriage is an eternal law.

Is this the reasoning that you were reffering to, BC?

And, like the other poster who initiated the OP, this is not an attempt for a "gotcha" moment...this is a sincere attempt to understand.

[_Drifting]

God explains exactly why here: http://LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... 6?lang=eng

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

Section 132 also makes it clear that it's a man thing.
Men can have wives.
Women can have a husband.

Here we go, here's the answer, clearly and explicitly stated by God himself directly to Joseph.

for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

So God was clear about it, it was for producing offspring.
Now how did Joseph do on fulfilling the specific reason he was commanded to practice it?

[_Runtu]

God explains exactly why here: http://LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testament/ ... 6?lang=eng

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

Section 132 also makes it clear that it's a man thing.
Men can have wives.
Women can have a husband.

Here we go, here's the answer, clearly and explicitly stated by God himself directly to Joseph.

for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

So God was clear about it, it was for producing offspring.
Now how did Joseph do on fulfilling the specific reason he was commanded to practice it?

The key piece of information here is that it was restored because Joseph asked about it. And people don't generally ask God about things unless they are interested in them. So, the correct response is that polygamy was practiced because Joseph Smith wanted to practice it.

[_Drifting]

The key piece of information here is that it was restored because Joseph asked about it. And people don't generally ask God about things unless they are interested in them. So, the correct response is that polygamy was practiced because Joseph Smith wanted to practice it.

And there we have it folks.

Thanks Runtu.

[_Benjamin McGuire]

So three comments for you Inquiring-

1: The whole "raise up seed" thing is, in my opinion, a misinterpretation of the Book of Mormon. I read that whole bit as dealing with the same issues that confronted later Judaism (in Europe) when the practice of polygamy went out of style with Gershom's ban. The two major historical arguments used against Gershom were the argument of the commandment of Genesis (the command to be fruitful and multiply) when considering a marriage that did not have children (in some places the practice was for a time a more or less automatic divorce after X years if there were no children under Gershom's ban). The other was the case of Levirate marriage in which the Law of Moses required polygamy under certain circumstances. I read that part of Jacob as an indictment of David and Solomon for their polygamy following the kingship code in Deuteronomy 17, and a response to a defense of polygamy from the Nephite practitioners who would have used Levirate marriage as commanded by God in the Mosaic Law - creating a tension over whether or not the commandment Lehi gave was to supersede the Law of Moses (the same criticism raised against Gershom). In this sense, Jacob's argument in verse 30 has nothing to do with raising up seed in polygamy, but rather pointing out that until God recognized exceptions to the commandment given through Lehi, that monogamy was to be considered absolute.

Along these same lines, I can't imagine Jacob being too happy about his text being used to defend polygamy in some of the ways that it gets used when he appears so violently opposed to it.

2: I think that the roots of polygamy (at least as far as Joseph Smith go) occur in the fact that early Mormonism was a restorationist movement. That is to say, that early LDS believed that a restoration of all things was required before the second coming could occur. They believed (along with other restorationist movements) that they could hurry along the second coming by helping to fulfill prophecy and by helping to restore all things. One of those things that they seemed to recognize (accurately or not) that need to be restored was polygamy. That backdrop instigates the dialogue that results in polygamy (and without it, I doubt Mormon polygamy would have begun). Whatever benefit there may (or may not) have been to it, or the reason God allowed it, it wasn't in the long run an appropriate institution and was ended. Certainly, it was practiced in a variety of ways (and dare we say perhaps experimented with) while some sort of consensus was being formed around its practice.

One of the more interesting aspects for me (at least in the way I look at things) is the requirement in polygamy of eliminating the sort of one-to-one intimacy and replacing that sort of ideal in marriage with a more functional image. Creating that new understanding took a great deal of effort (as did dismantling it after the practice ceased). Without the LDS Church being a missionary church and having added so many converts since that time (which allowed for a faster transition back), the church's views today would probably be far less diverse.

3: I think that more generally speaking, polygamy (as an institution) was an exception and not the rule. Because of the emphasis that was given to it (and the emphasis was caused by having to replace a whole range of social understandings that I mention in point 2 above), it seems to have made it hard to let go, and was given perhaps a higher significance than it deserved. It may have helped in certain specific situations (certainly that seems to be part of the design in Israel under Mosaic Law). It certainly does not seem beneficial on a widespread basis. I remain unconvinced that there will be polygamy in the after life (I am neutral on that point). I don't think that polygamy is any more susceptible to abuse than monogamy in the long run. But, I am a man, and my opinions probably don't count for a whole lot on that particular point. I think that early LDS polygamy did see some positives in their practice and some negatives. But few if any of these have much to do with apologetic responses.

Ben M.

[_bcspace]

No, I don't think it matters. Just because there is one reason listed in Jacob 2:30 doesn't mean it's the only possible reason.

I am also interested in what some of these other possible reasons may be. One theory that I have heard a lot is that polygamy, or rather plural marriage, had to be reinstated as part of the restoration of all things. Since it was restored, the practice could be suspended for the good of the Church, which it was, with the incorporation of the Manifesto, but that plural marriage is an eternal law.

Is this the reasoning that you were reffering to, BC?

And, like the other poster who initiated the OP, this is not an attempt for a "gotcha" moment...this is a sincere attempt to understand.

It's okay. I wasn't referring to anything in particular. Probably disappointing to some, but it truly does not matter to me what reason God had for it. Sometimes it's interesting to try and delve into, but it is enough for me to know that plural marriage was authorized by God anciently and so one should expect it in the Restored Church. I personally do not believe it had to be restored only to be suspended.

The key piece of information here is that it was restored because Joseph asked about it. And people don't generally ask God about things unless they are interested in them. So, the correct response is that polygamy was practiced because Joseph Smith wanted to practice it.

It doesn't follow that curiosity about it means one wants to practice it. Intellectual honesty here forces us to be logically consistent so if we take Joseph Smith at his word (or the word of others who knew him) that he asked about it, then we must also accept that Joseph Smith balked at doing it and had to have a flaming sword episode.

[_subgenius]

God was highly concerned that Joseph's needs be met in every way, whether they be sexual, monetary, political or other. God was really looking out for Joseph.

well buffalot, at least you consistently strive to just amuse yourself.