The stone rolls forth...

[Guest]

I wonder at what point same sex marriages will be revealed to be okay?

I'm betting on never. The plural marriage and priesthood ban doctrines never changed, why this one?

bcspace,

Do you believe that:
1. Men will have multiple wives in the Celestial Kingdom and that they will be able to procreate with all of them?
2. Having black skin prior to 1978 was a sign of unrighteousness?
3. Having a black skin since 1978 is a sign of unrighteousness?

As a follow up question:
Where specifically can I find the doctrine concerning the instigation of the Priesthood ban on Black people (African people if you prefer the term)?

[_malkie]

I don't know about anyone else, but during the time that I was an active TR-holding member, I didn't find that skin colour had any effect on my perception of the attractiveness/"enticingness" of a person (women in particular).

In case that statement might be misinterpreted, as an inactive non-TR-holding member, I find that skin colour has no more or less effect on me than it did before.

But maybe that's just me (malkie, that is, not Just Me (;=) )

Not sure I'm following your logic. The perception of you personally isn't what's being discussed, but the privilege to become a Mormon by those who have been "cursed" per Mormon doctrine. As a kid I was taught that the great war in heaven resulted in souls being separated into three groups. 1) Those who followed Jesus and were white. 2) those who couldn't decide and were cursed by being black. 3) Those who chose Satan and become demons. I remember my mother relaying a story of a young black girl who asked her why she couldn't be Mormon. She then said, "I never have figured that one out." Then the change came in 1978 and presto-changeo her dilemma was solved.

If openly Gay people cannot become Mormons today and the rules change by a new "revelation" that God supposedly changed his mind again, Mormons 30 years later would probably be debating how there never was a ban... much like the apologists do with the pre-1978 version of white and delightsome LDS doctrine.

Active LDS people with gay kids probably have the best perspective on this.

A bit off topic, I admit, but I was responding to the scripture that Drifting quoted:

21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.(2nd Nephi)

and noting that the part that says that the purpose of the "skin of blackness" was to make those cursed with it "not be enticing unto my people". For at least some active members, and even before 1978, that purpose seems not to have been fulfilled.

[_thews]

As a kid I was taught that the great war in heaven resulted in souls being separated into three groups.

Not by the Church you weren't.

Let me be more specific... by the LDS church I was taught that blacks were cursed. For the record bc, I was there, so don't tell me what I was taught. You can bask in denial that Brigham Young wasn't a racist and what he taught, but you have yet to present one shred of evidence to back up what isn't while you reject what is.

http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

What most Latter-day Saints have been taught in church and believe as truth.

Most Latter-day Saints are fully aware that black men were excluded from the priesthood from its inception till 1978. It was largely taught in the Church that up through the 1980s blacks were denied the priesthood because they were from the lineage of Cain, who was cursed with a black skin after killing his brother Abel. People were born black because they were less valiant in the pre-existence.

Unlike you, I can acknowledge the facts without failed attempts to deny the truth...
http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm

Brigham Young

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. - (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859)

"You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation ...When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336).

President Brigham Young, answering a question put to him by Elder Lorenzo D. Young in a meeting held December 25 , 1869, in Salt Lake City, said that Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder." The Way to Perfection, pages 105-106.

John Taylor, President of the Church

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304

Wilford Woodruff, 4th President of the Church

"And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children."
(Wilford Woodruff Journal)

Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren-children of God-not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. " The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102. http://www.barncow.com/curseofcain/

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less." (Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61)

[_Runtu]

Excellent point. I think they were separated into the nice (obedient) and naughty (wanting to leave in order to sin and not receive blessings).

I was taught in church that there were two groups: those who rebelled against God, and those who accepted His plan. The 1/3 who rebelled were cast out. The remaining 2/3 were sent to earth, though those who were less valiant were given certain "handicaps," such as the type of body they received and the curse of not having the priesthood. So, in a sense, you have 3 groups: rebellious, valiant, and less valiant.

[_Buffalo]

As a kid I was taught that the great war in heaven resulted in souls being separated into three groups.

Not by the Church you weren't.

I was taught that by the church. As in, I went to church, and heard it from church leaders.

[_Buffalo]

I wonder at what point same sex marriages will be revealed to be okay?

I'm betting on never. The plural marriage and priesthood ban doctrines never changed, why this one?

This is why I think bcspace is a double agent.