Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

By the way -
That's not quite true. Ether 10 associates "working beasts" with the tools the Jaredites made.
It's one way to read the difficult passage:
And they did make all manner of tools with which they did work their beasts.
I think that I wouldn't probably read it this way, but its hard to say -

they did work in all manner of ore
they did work all manner of cloth
they did work their beasts.

So while its possible he was talking about "working beasts" as you note, I am not sure. I think that it might mean something other than a beast of burden here - but even so, I think that we can generally agree that at least in Ether, when we speak of Cureloms and Cumoms, and Elephants, we lean towards that role. And the idea of a beast of burden seems apparent in Mosiah 21:3, which is much more explicit on the notion of burden without necessarily the context of a specific animal.

Ben M.
_Themis
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Themis »

Benjamin McGuire wrote: But at the same time, the rest of the Book of Mormon, where horses are never ridden, are never used in battle, are never described as being beasts of burden - is quite happy with such a theory.



That is a big assumption. The text may not mention them, but then it does not give much in descriptions. Of course the apologetic argument is that the text is mainly for religious purposes and not historical.
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Themis writes:
That is a big assumption. The text may not mention them, but then it does not give much in descriptions. Of course the apologetic argument is that the text is mainly for religious purposes and not historical.
I disagree with you on this issue. Primarily because, particularly in the case of warfare, there is a great deal of detail and description in the text where we have a constant stream in places of wars, battles, tactics, and so on.

Some of the other issues are more interesting but more subtle. Take for example the Kingship code of Deuteronomy 17. It may be quoted in Jacob 2 (my argument). The related passage about priests in Deuteronomy 18 is directly referenced twice. The kingship code is certainly alluded to in the narratives related to all of the quintessential wicked kings in the Book of Mormon (e.g. King Noah). If we look at the evils that the king is required to avoid - the many wives issue comes up, the taxing the people comes up, what doesn't come up? Acquiring horses doesn't come up. It is absent in the one place I would really expect to see it if we had horses all over the place. The same is true of Riplakish.

Whether or not the purpose of the text is primarily religious or historical, if there were horses, I would expect to see them in certain places in both a religious text and a historical text - and they are not there.

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_Themis
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Themis »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:I disagree with you on this issue. Primarily because, particularly in the case of warfare, there is a great deal of detail and description in the text where we have a constant stream in places of wars, battles, tactics, and so on.


I have read it many times, and I would not describe it as giving much detail at all.

Some of the other issues are more interesting but more subtle. Take for example the Kingship code of Deuteronomy 17. It may be quoted in Jacob 2 (my argument). The related passage about priests in Deuteronomy 18 is directly referenced twice. The kingship code is certainly alluded to in the narratives related to all of the quintessential wicked kings in the Book of Mormon (e.g. King Noah). If we look at the evils that the king is required to avoid - the many wives issue comes up, the taxing the people comes up, what doesn't come up? Acquiring horses doesn't come up. It is absent in the one place I would really expect to see it if we had horses all over the place. The same is true of Riplakish.


I wonder why the Book of Mormon never brings up people living their when they got there, when that is what we would expect. :)

Whether or not the purpose of the text is primarily religious or historical, if there were horses, I would expect to see them in certain places in both a religious text and a historical text - and they are not there.


We do see it in the text in several places, but as I said, the text is not very descriptive most of the time. What I do not see is any mention at all of other groups that did not come across the sea in a boat or submarine. :)
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_Runtu
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Runtu »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:I think that I wouldn't probably read it this way, but its hard to say -

they did work in all manner of ore
they did work all manner of cloth
they did work their beasts.

So while its possible he was talking about "working beasts" as you note, I am not sure. I think that it might mean something other than a beast of burden here - but even so, I think that we can generally agree that at least in Ether, when we speak of Cureloms and Cumoms, and Elephants, we lean towards that role. And the idea of a beast of burden seems apparent in Mosiah 21:3, which is much more explicit on the notion of burden without necessarily the context of a specific animal.

Ben M.


Thank you for that. The passage in Mosiah does suggest a cultural familiarity with beasts of burdens; otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

I am not being as rigid as you think I am. To me, this is like the DNA issue in that the simplest interpretation doesn't work. For DNA evidence, it's obvious that a hemispheric model for the Book of Mormon doesn't work; for horses and chariots, the simplest, most direct interpretation doesn't work. I would assume we agree on that.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss things without hostility, which is refreshing given what I've experienced recently. I understand your position, and I am glad it works for you. As I said before, you were the only believing Mormon who seriously engaged my discussion of postmodernism, which says a lot about you.
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_Drifting
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Drifting »

Why would God release a book of uncorrupted scripture in these latter days that requires significant manipulation of words and phrases to try and make it sound plausible?

Instead God releases a book which is overwhelmingly easier to believe as man made fantasy.

Hmmm.....
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_moksha
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _moksha »

The tapir, often cited by apologists, is a largely nocturnal animal that spends most of the daytime sleeping.


What about tapirs with sleep disorders?
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_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Drifting writes:
Why would God release a book of uncorrupted scripture in these latter days that requires significant manipulation of words and phrases to try and make it sound plausible?
I am curious what you mean by uncorrupted.

The Book of Mormon (the vast majority of it) is a text that alleges a history of compilation, editing and redaction. The notion of corruption in the text seems to be far more about doctrine than other issues. I think that we can point to different parts of the text and suggest that while its editors and redactors believed an account was literal and historically accurate, our modern skepticism leads us in a different direction. Take, for example, Alma 11. Starting with a description of money, we shift to a discussion about a lawyer whose name is the same as a piece of money. It's kind of like one of those jokes about the law firm of Willy, Cheatem, and Howe.

I understand that this view seems a bit odd to you and inconsistent with the notion of divine assistance and intervention - but it doesn't seem all that strange to me given my personal set of beliefs and understandings. It is one of the great divides between the LDS faithful and certain other groups like Evangelicals - our view of scripture, fallibility and related issues are so far apart that it makes discussion difficult without a clear discussion of assumptions to go along with it. Beyond telling me that you don't believe that God helped translate the Book of Mormon, I really don't know much about your assumptions Drifting, and it would be helpful to have you provide some of them to expedite some of our discussions. Are you religious at all? Is there a religious tradition you follow that I can start from?

I am reminded of an e-mail that recently came to me (apologies for the length):
What does a Biblical scholar do when he comes to a stop sign? It depends on his training:

1. A post modernist deconstructs the sign (knocks it over with his car), ending forever the tyranny of the north-south traffic over the east-west traffic.

2. Similarly, a Marxist sees a stop sign as an instrument of class conflict. He concludes that the bourgeoisie use the north-south road and obstruct the progress of the workers on the east-west road.

3. A serious and educated Catholic believes that he cannot understand the stop sign apart from its interpretive community and their tradition. Observing that the interpretive community doesn't take it too seriously, he doesn't feel obligated to take it too seriously either.

4. An average Catholic (or Orthodox or Coptic or Anglican or Methodist or Presbyterian or whatever) doesn't bother to read the sign but he'll stop if the car in front of him does.

5. A fundamentalist, taking the text very literally, stops at the stop sign and waits for it to tell him to go.

6. A preacher might look up "STOP" in his lexicons of English and discover that it can mean:

1) something which prevents motion, such as a plug for a drain, or a block of wood that prevents a door from closing;
2) a location where a train or bus lets off passengers. The main point of his sermon the following Sunday on this text is: when you see a stop sign, it is a place where traffic is naturally clogged, so it is a good place to let off passengers from your car.

7. An orthodox Jew does one of two things:

1.Take another route to work that doesn't have a stop sign so that he doesn't run the risk of disobeying the Law.

2.Stop at the stop sign, say "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, king of the universe, who hast given us thy commandment to stop," wait 3 seconds according to his watch, and then proceed.

Incidentally, the Talmud has the following comments on this passage: R[abbi] Meir says: He who does not stop shall not live long. R. Hillel says: Cursed is he who does not count to three before proceeding. R. Simon ben Yudah says: Why three? Because the Holy One, blessed be He, gave us the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. R. ben Isaac says: Because of the three patriarchs. R. Yehuda says: Why bless the Lord at a stop sign? Because it says: "Be still, and know that I am God." R. Hezekiel says: When Jephthah returned from defeating the Ammonites, the Holy One, blessed be He, knew that a donkey would run out of the house and overtake his daughter; but Jephthah did not stop at the stop sign, and the donkey did not have time to come out. For this reason he saw his daughter first and lost her. Thus he was judged for his transgression at the stop sign. R. Gamaliel says: R. Hillel, when he was a baby, never spoke a word, though his parents tried to teach him by speaking and showing him the words on a scroll. One day his father was driving through town and did not stop at the sign. Young Hillel called out: "Stop, father!" In this way, he began reading and speaking at the same time. Thus it is written: "Out of the mouth of babes." R. ben Jacob says: Where did the stop sign come from? Out of the sky, for it is written: "Forever, O Lord, your word is fixed in the heavens." R. ben Nathan says: When were stop signs created? On the fourth day, for it is written: "let them serve as signs." R. Yeshuah says: ... [continues for three more pages....]

8. A Pharisee does the same thing as an orthodox Jew, except that he waits 10 seconds instead of 3. He also replaces his brake lights with 1000 watt searchlights and connects his horn so that it is activated whenever he touches the brake pedal.

9. A scholar from Jesus seminar concludes that the passage "STOP" undoubtedly was never uttered by Jesus himself, but belongs entirely to stage III of the gospel tradition, when the church was first confronted by traffic in its parking lot.

10. A New Testament scholar notices that there is no stop sign on Mark street but there is one on Matthew and Luke streets, and concludes that the ones on Luke and Matthew streets are both copied from a sign on a completely hypothetical street called "Q". There is an excellent 300 page discussion of speculations on the origin of these stop signs and the differences between the stop signs on Matthew and Luke street in the scholar's commentary on the passage.

There is an unfortunately omission in the commentary, however; the author apparently forgot to explain what the text means.

11. An Old Testament scholar points out that there are a number of stylistic differences between the first and second half of the passage "STOP". For example, "ST" contains no enclosed areas and 5 line endings, whereas "OP" contains two enclosed areas and only one line termination. He concludes that the author for the second part is different from the author for the first part and probably lived hundreds of years later. Later scholars determine that the second half is itself actually written by two separate authors because of similar stylistic differences between the "O" and the "P".

12. Another prominent Old Testament scholar notes in his commentary that the stop sign would fit better into the context three streets back. (Unfortunately, he neglected to explain why in his commentary.) Clearly it was moved to its present location by a later redactor. He thus exegetes the intersection as though the stop sign were not there.

13. Because of the difficulties in interpretation, another Old Testament scholar emends the text, changing "T" to "H". "SHOP" is much easier to understand in context than "STOP" because of the multiplicity of stores in the area. The textual corruption probably occurred because "SHOP" is so similar to "STOP" on the sign several streets back that it is a natural mistake for a scribe to make. Thus the sign should be interpreted to announce the existence of a shopping area.
_bcuzbcuz
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _bcuzbcuz »

Runtu wrote:The Book of Mormon mentions chariots and horses, which King Lamoni orders to be prepared for a journey:


Chariots...schmariots. What about corn???

Primary crop in North, Central, South America. And Yet? The Book of Mormon says nothing about corn. Or potatoes. Primary crop in North, Central, South America. And Yet??? The Book of Mormon says nothing about potatoes.

Before anyone can make chariots or train horses, they need food. The Book of Mormon gets it ALL wrong.
And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love...you make. PMcC
_Tobin
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Re: Horse and Chariots--Another Apologist Red Herring

Post by _Tobin »

And how about barley? Oh wait, I guess they did find barley. What I find interesting is for years, critics of the Book of Mormon would say that there was no evidence of barley in pre-columbian America, and then we find it. Do they instantly concede that the Book of Mormon was correct and they were wrong? No.

The fact is, there is a much easier way to prove the Book of Mormon is a fraud. Pray to God and if you don't feel it is true, then it is a hoax. Seems like a stupid way to perpetrate a fraud to me. Or let's get to the "classic" ex-mormon excuse: I felt it was true, but I was deluding myself. Well DUH. You seriously just stopped at feelings? You went to all the trouble of being baptised and wearing funny looking underwear and you never bothered to actually speak with God yourself? There is no point of believing in Mormonism or any religion for that matter if God isn't real and if you can't be bothered to go there, you should just remain an atheist and go on your merry way.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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