Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

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_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

For some reason, this conversation reminds me of something I read a few years back from Terry Eagleton:

The word "fundamentalism" was first used in the early years of the last century by anti-liberal US Christians, who singled out seven supposed fundamentals of their faith. The word, then, is not one of those derogatory terms that only other people use about you, like "fatso". It began life as a proud self-description. The first of the seven fundamentals was a belief in the literal truth of the Bible; and this is probably the best definition of fundamentalism there is. It is basically a textual affair. Fundamentalists are those who believe that our linguistic currency is trustworthy only if it is backed by the gold standard of the Word of Words. They see God as copperfastening human meaning. Fundamentalism means sticking strictly to the script, which in turn means being deeply fearful of the improvised, ambiguous or indeterminate.

Fundamentalists, however, fail to realise that the phrase "sacred text" is self-contradictory. Since writing is meaning that can be handled by anybody, any time, it is always profane and promiscuous. Meaning that has been written down is bound to be unhygienic. Words that could only ever mean one thing would not be words. Fundamentalism is the paranoid condition of those who do not see that roughness is not a defect of human existence, but what makes it work. For them, it is as though we have to measure Everest down to the last millimetre if we are not to be completely stumped about how high it is. It is not surprising that fundamentalism abhors sexuality and the body, since in one sense all flesh is rough, and all sex is rough trade.

The New Testament author known as Luke is presumably aware that Jesus was actually born in Galilee. But he needs to have him born in Judea, since the Messiah is to spring from the Judea-based house of David. A Messiah born in bumpkinish Galilee would be like one born in Gary, Indiana. So Luke coolly invents a Roman census, for which there is no independent evidence, which requires everyone to return to their place of birth to be registered. Since Jesus's father Joseph comes from Bethlehem in Judea, he and his wife Mary obediently trudge off to the town, where Jesus is conveniently born.

It would be hard to think up a more ludicrous way of registering the population of the entire Roman empire than having them all return to their birthplaces. Why not just register them on the spot? The result of such a madcap scheme would have been total chaos. The traffic jams would have made Ken Livingstone's job look positively cushy. And we would almost certainly have heard about this international gridlocking from rather more disinterested witnesses than Luke. Yet fundamentalists must take Luke at his word.

Fundamentalists are really necrophiliacs, in love with a dead letter. The letter of the sacred text must be rigidly embalmed if it is to imbue life with the certitude and finality of death. Matthew's gospel, in a moment of carelessness, presents Jesus as riding into Jerusalem on both a colt and an ass - in which case, for the fundamentalist, the Son of God must indeed have had one leg thrown over each.


In a sense, this insistence that pseudepigrapha doesn't constitute much of the Bible is exactly this sort of textual necrophilia, a sort of Bibliolatry, as it were.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Buffalo wrote:If you're going to ignore evidence because you don't like the implications, then I don't see the point in trying to help you out.
Well, if your position is that Christianity and God is a bunch of hooey, I'm sure we could discuss it. But, I think there are bigger issues to fry than who ultimately penned Isaiah in that case.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Buffalo wrote:If you're going to ignore evidence because you don't like the implications, then I don't see the point in trying to help you out.


I find it fascinating that other religious folks have no problem with the notion of pseudepigrapha in the Bible. It's only fundamentalists who insist on the Bible being exactly what it says it is and written by exactly who it says it was written by. Most Christians, such as Catholic scholar Eagleton, whom I quoted, wouldn't bat an eyelash at a Bible that is, as he put it, rough trade.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:In a sense, this insistence that pseudepigrapha doesn't constitute much of the Bible is exactly this sort of textual necrophilia, a sort of Bibliolatry, as it were.
The problem with tearing at loose threads in a carpet is that after a while, you don't have a carpet any more.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:The problem with tearing at loose threads in a carpet is that after a while, you don't have a carpet any more.


This is a false dichotomy. It isn't all literal or not literal; it isn't all true or not true. All text has been handled by humans and is therefore imperfect. But it is that very imperfection that makes it beautiful. Again, to quote from Eagleton, "Fundamentalism is the paranoid condition of those who do not see that roughness is not a defect of human existence, but what makes it work."
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:This is a false dichotomy. It isn't all literal or not literal; it isn't all true or not true. All text has been handled by humans and is therefore imperfect. But it is that very imperfection that makes it beautiful. Again, to quote from Eagleton, "Fundamentalism is the paranoid condition of those who do not see that roughness is not a defect of human existence, but what makes it work."
It is? Please do tell me where you stop then? Do we stop where Jesus does magic tricks? I think probably not, magic tricks aren't real. How about when Jesus comes back from the dead? Again, probably not. People don't come back from the dead. It is an endless, and I'll add useless, exercise.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Runtu
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

Tobin wrote:It is? Please do tell me where you stop then? Do we stop where Jesus does magic tricks? I think probably not, magic tricks aren't real. How about when Jesus comes back from the dead? Again, probably not. People don't come back from the dead. It is an endless, and I'll add useless, exercise.


I can't imagine seeing the world in such stark, black-and-white terms.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Runtu »

I just realized I accidentally left off the last paragraph, which is strangely appropriate, given Tobin's last "where do we draw the line?" response:

The fundamentalist is a more diseased version of the argument-from-the-floodgates type of conservative. Once you allow one motorist to throw up out of the car window without imposing a lengthy prison sentence, then before you know where you are, every motorist will be throwing up out of the window all the time, and the roads will become impassable. It is this kind of pathological anxiety, pressed to an extreme, which drove the religious police in Mecca early last year to send fleeing schoolgirls back into their burning school because they were not wearing their robes and head dresses, and which inspires family-loving US pro-lifers eager to incinerate Iraq to gun down doctors who terminate pregnancies. To read the world literally is a kind of insanity.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Tobin
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Tobin »

Runtu wrote:I just realized I accidentally left off the last paragraph, which is strangely appropriate, given Tobin's last "where do we draw the line?" response:
The fundamentalist is a more diseased version of the argument-from-the-floodgates type of conservative. Once you allow one motorist to throw up out of the car window without imposing a lengthy prison sentence, then before you know where you are, every motorist will be throwing up out of the window all the time, and the roads will become impassable. It is this kind of pathological anxiety, pressed to an extreme, which drove the religious police in Mecca early last year to send fleeing schoolgirls back into their burning school because they were not wearing their robes and head dresses, and which inspires family-loving US pro-lifers eager to incinerate Iraq to gun down doctors who terminate pregnancies. To read the world literally is a kind of insanity.
So, comically mischievous asides notwithstanding, I'm still fuzzy on where line is. But, let me take a whack at it:
1) John clearly disagrees with our theory, or as Buffalo says, some guy pretending to be John wrote John so what does he know about it?!? So he's out.
2) Jesus just said he was the son of God, but really he's just a 1st century palestinian jew and what does he know?!? So he's out.
3) The early apostles were fishermen for the most part so they are out.
4) Bishops of the Catholic church clearly had no idea what they were doing when they voted on the Books of the Bible, so they are out.
5) Well, we all know what Runtu thinks of Fundamentalists, so they are out.
And that leaves us with *drum roll please*:
6) A bunch of Bible scholars, who are really atheists dressed in pink Christian bunny suits as the WINNERS! Thank goodness we have a concensus. I feel so much better!!!
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Deutro-Isaiah. Credible or Incredible...?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I am curious Tobin, what sort of dialogue do you expect to have with people that disagree with you? How can they offer their opinions or evidence in a manner you would accept?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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