UK set for same-sex marriage battle...

[_ludwigm]

[_subgenius]

And where are all of these overwhelming studies? Also, what are the criteria that the researchers analyzed to determine whether a condition was "good" or "bad?" College matriculation? High school Graduation? Future addiction to drugs? Church attendance? You have provided no information other than your claim. How can we know whether you just made all of that information up or not? You see the predicament you have left us all in?

I seriously consider you to be the only one in a "predicament", but it is becoming obvious as to why. With rather obvious notions that have long been accepted and evidenced in the academic and professional world one often does not have "support" well known information. Its like being in calculus class and asking the teacher to prove that 2+2=4.

i believe the general term used in the research community, with regard to such studies, is "well-being" both material and emotional......to a novice it may be viewed as a subjective condition, but maturity reveals otherwise.......kinda like being good citizens, ya know?



The nation’s leading non-partisan child advocacy organization, Child Trends, concluded, “An extensive body of research tells us that children do best when they grow up with both biological parents in a low-conflict marriage. ... Thus, it is not simply the presence of two parents, as some have assumed, but the
presence of two biological parents that seem to support child development.”

After examining family status and child wellbeing, including children raised by same-sex parents, the Center for Law and Social Policy concluded that: “on average, children do better when raised by two married, biological parents who have low-conflict relationships.


i can only assume that you are participating in this discussion as a means to actually become informed about the issue.
start here, and then we can move up

http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publica ... s/0086.pdf
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-ch ... advantage/
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/userma ... tertwo.cfm
http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/311025 ... ucture.pdf
http://narth.com/docs/gendercomplementarity.html

now, i have not proposed that same-sex parents are "bad" for children, just that they are not the "best" when all other factors are equal. This is a fundamental truth behind the virtue of marriage in a society and why it is "supported" by society.

but please, don't let the facts get in your way

[_subgenius]

Hmmm....interesting indeed.

So, the Church may be better served encouraging single mothers to hook up with the female young single adults who cannot, for the love of God, catch a male (as per Moson's conference talk). Now THAT's a revelation!

i knew you would come back around to the power of revelation.

you remind of the old Bill Maher joke where he speaks about homosexuality:
... and how we all know that the problem is really with men, no one has issue with 2 women being together, but men....yikes, the only thing one man was meant to put into another man is.......a bullet.

[Guest]

....

http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publica ... s/0086.pdf
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-ch ... advantage/
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/userma ... tertwo.cfm
http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/311025 ... ucture.pdf
http://narth.com/docs/gendercomplementarity.html

now, i have not proposed that same-sex parents are "bad" for children, just that they are not the "best" when all other factors are equal. This is a fundamental truth behind the virtue of marriage in a society and why it is "supported" by society.

but please, don't let the facts get in your way

subgenius, do you read the things to which you link?

From page six of the PDF of your linked article at http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publications_states/files/0086.pdf


Although the research on these families has limitations, the findings are consistent: children raised by same-sex parents are no more likely to exhibit poor outcomes than children raised by divorced heterosexual parents. Since many children raised by gay or lesbian parents have undergone the divorce of their parents, researchers have considered the most appropriate comparison group to be children of heterosexual divorced parents. Children of gay or lesbian parents do not look different from their counterparts raised in heterosexual divorced families regarding school performance, behavior problems, emotional problems, early pregnancy, or difficulties finding employment. However, as previously indicated, children of divorce are at higher risk for many of these problems than children of married parents.


This doesn't seem to be much of an argument against same-sex families. I haven't had time read the articles from your other links, yet. But I can hardly wait.

[_aranyborju]

I seriously consider you to be the only one in a "predicament", but it is becoming obvious as to why. With rather obvious notions that have long been accepted and evidenced in the academic and professional world one often does not have "support" well known information. Its like being in calculus class and asking the teacher to prove that 2+2=4.

Well if I knew the support information then I wouldn't be asking for it would I? Do you always criticize people who ask you to share information that you have gathered in such a condescending tone?

i believe the general term used in the research community, with regard to such studies, is "well-being" both material and emotional......to a novice it may be viewed as a subjective condition, but maturity reveals otherwise.......kinda like being good citizens, ya know?

In the law we use the term "best interest of the child" when determining placement in custody battles. That could be determined by several factors, none of which includes being a good citizen, which is more subjective than the conditions that I mentioned earlier? Again, was it wrong of me to ask?

The nation’s leading non-partisan child advocacy organization, Child Trends, concluded, “An extensive body of research tells us that children do best when they grow up with both biological parents in a low-conflict marriage. ... Thus, it is not simply the presence of two parents, as some have assumed, but the
presence of two biological parents that seem to support child development.”

After examining family status and child wellbeing, including children raised by same-sex parents, the Center for Law and Social Policy concluded that: “on average, children do better when raised by two married, biological parents who have low-conflict relationships.

What about a child, raised in an adoptive home, that would otherwise be a ward of the state? Would that not generally be an improvement?

i can only assume that you are participating in this discussion as a means to actually become informed about the issue.
start here, and then we can move up

http://www.clasp.org/admin/site/publica ... s/0086.pdf
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/are-ch ... advantage/
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/userma ... tertwo.cfm
http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/311025 ... ucture.pdf
http://narth.com/docs/gendercomplementarity.html

You assume correctly, and thank you for providing the links I was asking for, even if it was grudgingly done.

now, i have not proposed that same-sex parents are "bad" for children, just that they are not the "best" when all other factors are equal. This is a fundamental truth behind the virtue of marriage in a society and why it is "supported" by society.

but please, don't let the facts get in your way

Unfortunately, all factors never are equal, and each situation must be viewed on a case by case basis. That's why we don't just automatically give the kids to mom in a divorce like we used to. Furthermore, if marriage between individuals should be judged by whether or not it would be an ideal match for raising children, then maybe we should use that as a litmus test for same sex marriages as well.

[_subgenius]

....


Although the research on these families has limitations, the findings are consistent: children raised by same-sex parents are no more likely to exhibit poor outcomes than children raised by divorced heterosexual parents. - - - - - > children of divorce are at higher risk for many of these problems than children of married parents.


This doesn't seem to be much of an argument against same-sex families. I haven't had time read the articles from your other links, yet. But I can hardly wait.

i never claimed to argue against same-sex families...just for the fact that married biological parents are the #1 best situation for the well-being of child.
i believe i stated above:
"Studies and scholars overwhelmingly illustrate that a child being raised by its biological mother and father is the best condition for that child (all other things being equal)"

yes, read them all - the last link provides a great comprehension of a variety of studies.

[_subgenius]

Well if I knew the support information then I wouldn't be asking for it would I? Do you always criticize people who ask you to share information that you have gathered in such a condescending tone?

only when they initiate it - i believe you, with no reason, accused me of "making it up".

Unfortunately, all factors never are equal, and each situation must be viewed on a case by case basis. That's why we don't just automatically give the kids to mom in a divorce like we used to. Furthermore, if marriage between individuals should be judged by whether or not it would be an ideal match for raising children, then maybe we should use that as a litmus test for same sex marriages as well.

you speak about exceptions, not the rule.

the best interest of the child is to have that child in the "best" environment possible...and i believe there is no better one than married biological parents.
yes, some parents are abusive, some are negligent - but that occurs within every environment.
Even poverty is being found to not be a determining factor to remove a child from married biological parents (read links).

lets not throw the baby out with the bath water

[_Morley]

....


Although the research on these families has limitations, the findings are consistent: children raised by same-sex parents are no more likely to exhibit poor outcomes than children raised by divorced heterosexual parents. - - - - - > children of divorce are at higher risk for many of these problems than children of married parents.


This doesn't seem to be much of an argument against same-sex families. I haven't had time read the articles from your other links, yet. But I can hardly wait.

i never claimed to argue against same-sex families...just for the fact that married biological parents are the #1 best situation for the well-being of child.
i believe i stated above:
"Studies and scholars overwhelmingly illustrate that a child being raised by its biological mother and father is the best condition for that child (all other things being equal)"

yes, read them all - the last link provides a great comprehension of a variety of studies.

Sub, which of your studies concludes the following?

...and 2 men is so dismal that most shy away claiming "no real data exists", but where it does it is not favorable for the mustache party.

[_aranyborju]

Well if I knew the support information then I wouldn't be asking for it would I? Do you always criticize people who ask you to share information that you have gathered in such a condescending tone?

only when they initiate it - i believe you, with no reason, accused me of "making it up".

Actually, what I said was "How can we know whether you just made all of that information up or not?" Hardly an accusation...and I did have a reason...the fact that you just said a bunch of stuff without giving me a chance to review it for myself.

Unfortunately, all factors never are equal, and each situation must be viewed on a case by case basis. That's why we don't just automatically give the kids to mom in a divorce like we used to. Furthermore, if marriage between individuals should be judged by whether or not it would be an ideal match for raising children, then maybe we should use that as a litmus test for same sex marriages as well.

you speak about exceptions, not the rule.

the best interest of the child is to have that child in the "best" environment possible...and i believe there is no better one than married biological parents.
yes, some parents are abusive, some are negligent - but that occurs within every environment.
Even poverty is being found to not be a determining factor to remove a child from married biological parents (read links).

lets not throw the baby out with the bath water

Still reading links.

[_Morley]

yes, read them all - the last link provides a great comprehension of a variety of studies.

My emphasis.


subgenius: You’re referring to the meta-analysis on the NARTH website. NARTH may not be the most objective resource.


The National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) is a non-profit organization that offers reparative therapy and other regimens that purport to change the sexual orientation of individuals who experience unwanted same-sex attraction.

and

NARTH's leaders disagree with the mainstream scientific consensus and the holding of the world's major mental health organizations that homosexuality is not a disorder.

and

No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and most of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA,[37] Royal College of Psychiatrists,[38] and Australian Psychological Society.[39]