Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes

[_Tobin]

Do you ever justify your beliefs with common sense or reason or do you just try to support one crazy belief with another and it never stops? I suppose God can do anything no matter how crazy and no matter how contrary to the laws of nature, but you have a heavy burden to prove God does so, especially if you are going to start relying on the Old Testament and all the folklore and myths that are scientifically proven not to have occurred. Or do you really believe the story of the Tower of Babel even though there were many languages and people in many regions of the earth hundreds of years before the supposed tower story and the story is nonsensical in so many ways. Of course, the Book of Mormon's story of the Jeredites is dependant on the reality of the Tower of Babel story. So long Book of Mormon. I suppose you also believe that an angel of God with drawn sword threatened to kill Joseph if he didn't have sex with other men's wives and with young teenage girls? The craziness of Mormonism never ends. You can believe anything you want, but don't expect people who have not deluded themselves to pretend your beliefs make any sense or are the result of an intelligent, good faith search for truth.

Yes, we get it. You don't believe in God or the Bible and so you don't believe in Mormonism. Thank you for playing. Why exactly do you even wish to discuss Mormonism then?

[_Tonto Schwartz]

Your implication that if God exists and the Bible is true sacred scripture, one has to believe Mormonism is baseless and illogical. My unbelief in Mormonism goes far beyond belief in God or unbelief in the Bible as sacred scripture reporting historical events. It goes to the absolute absurdity of Joseph Smith's claims, the false, sanitized history sponsored by the L.D.S. Church which attempts to hide the lies and craziness of early Mormonism and the ever changing doctrines and lack of candor concerning some of those doctrines. I was hoping to have a discussion of Mormonism that involved an intelligent discussion of the issues, not the unsupported regurgitation of nonsensical stories. I should have known better. Adieu.

[_Tobin]

Your implication that if God exists and the Bible is true sacred scripture, one has to believe Mormonism is baseless and illogical. My unbelief in Mormonism goes far beyond belief in God or unbelief in the Bible as sacred scripture reporting historical events. It goes to the absolute absurdity of Joseph Smith's claims, the false, sanitized history sponsored by the L.D.S. Church which attempts to hide the lies and craziness of early Mormonism and the ever changing doctrines and lack of candor concerning some of those doctrines. I was hoping to have a discussion of Mormonism that involved an intelligent discussion of the issues, not the unsupported regurgitation of nonsensical stories. I should have known better. Adieu.

You should realize that isn't possible. If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.

[_Shulem]

If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.

You're sadly mistaken.

Many of the board posters don't believe in God and think the scriptures are a bunch of garbage. yet they carry on intelligent conversations about Mormonism right here on this board.

You owe the man an apology for what you said. Bad form!

Dr. Shades, where are you?

Paul O

[_Tonto Schwartz]

You should realize that isn't possible. If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.

Because you apparently have no intelligent basis for your belief in the Bible and Mormonism, I agree there is nothing to discuss. I have no interest in discussing beliefs based on a burning in the bosom validating folklore, myths and lies.

[_Tobin]

You're sadly mistaken.

Many of the board posters don't believe in God and think the scriptures are a bunch of garbage. yet they carry on intelligent conversations about Mormonism right here on this board.

You owe the man an apology for what you said. Bad form!

Dr. Shades, where are you?

Paul O

Not likely. I was just pointing out that smitchell1 is thowing around terms like "crazy" to describe Mormon beliefs in an omnipotent God, the scriptures, or uses that label when I describe the exact belief under discussion. In this case, there is very little discussing going on. Falling back to the position that smitchell1 doesn't believe in a God and that the scriptures are myths and then demanding I prove there is a God and that the scriptures describe actual events that neither of us were present at is bizarre. These demands are what smitchell1 describes as an "intelligent" conversation. I deem them as a complete waste of time. If smitchell1 is interested in whether Mormon beliefs are valid, smithchell1 can speak to God about it. As far as I am concerned, that is inevitable and smitchell1 can remain ignorant until then.

[_Tonto Schwartz]

It is a complete waste of time for Tobin to defend his beliefs in Biblical and Mormon myths, folklore and lies with anything but his unsupported statement that he believes these things because the L.D.S. church tells him they are true and it makes him feel good. That is undoubtedly because he has no other basis for his beliefs other than a burning in his bosom. Did it ever occur to him that many other religions and spiritual traditions support conflicting and completely different beliefs by resort to the same subjective inner feelings divorced from any good faith search for truth? Who does he think creates his inner feelings? Who creates his anger? Who creates his sadness? Who creates his happiness? The answer is the same person that creates his feelings of spirituality: he does. What is spiritual to one person is of the devil to another person. The idea that you can discover how the universe and God work and whether the Bible and Mormonism are true by just seeking the spirit inside you is absurd. You discover truth by intelligent study, analysis and discussion.

With respect to Tobin's statement that he shouldn't have to prove that there is a God or that the scriptures describe actual history because neither of us were present at the time of these events and that my suggestion that he have some intelligent basis for believing the scriptures is "bizarre," it is really his position that is bizarre. Does he really believe that you cannot possibly know whether an event is historical unless you were there? I wasn't there for the Civil War or the Boston Tea Party, but I've learned alot about those actual events through study. Certainly, history isn't all black and white and there are many times uncertainties about some details, but that is not to say that the study of history is useless. I am pretty certain that Tobin has never undertaken a critical study of the Old Testament to determine whether stories such as Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel, Lot being raped by his daughters, who then gave birth to the fathers of the Ammonite and Moabite nations, Israel's traditional enemies, the fantastical tales concerning Moses, Jonah and the Whale, and on and on and on. If Tobin were willing to actually undertake a critical study of the Bible, he would learn how much scholars have learned about Biblical history and who actually wrote various portions of the Bible and when and that some prophesies were back dated hundreds of years. A critical study of these ancient stories over many years leads the vast majority of scholars to conclude these stories are nothing but folklore and myths which are debunked not only by science, but by common sense and rational thought. To simply accept these stories as true, sacred scripture just because the church says they are true is not reasonable. On what basis does Tobin favor the Jewish folklore and myths found in the Bible over the folklore and myths of many other ancient cultures?

The same type of analysis holds true for the stories of Joseph Smith and early Mormonism. If Tobin isn't willing to engage in a legitimate search for the truth by critically studying The Book of Mormon and the real history of Joseph and the church instead of just swallowing whole the sanitized "faith promoting" version put out by the church, he really has no reasonable basis for his faith upon which he can expect anyone but a true believing Mormon to place any value. Faith should be based on something more than "this is what Mormons believe and it makes me feel good."

Finally, Tobin says I should speak to God about whether Mormonism is true and until that time I can remain ignorant. Does Tobin understand that hundreds of thousands of people (if not many millions) have done exactly that and either left Mormonism or refused to join? Does he understand that hundreds of thousands of traditional Christians have prayed to God and been told by the spirit that Mormonism is false. Apparently, just asking God and going by the spirit isn't a very dependable way to get answers. In fact, I have studied Mormonism long and hard, both "faith promoting" materials and objective materials. And, I even tested "Moroni's promise." I know "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that Mormonism is false and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I would bet that Tobin has never undertaken a good faith, objective look at the Bible, the Book of Mormon or Mormonism. Until he is willing to do so, it is he that will remain ignorant.

[_Tobin]

Hehe, I must have struck a nerve with this smitchell1. Something is clearly broken because that is quite a number of generalizations about what I may or may not believe. Since I don't hold many of the beliefs I'm suppose to subscribe to according to smitchell1, I did get a good laugh reading through the post below. And just to clarify, many of the accounts in the Bible come from Bible sources alone and the same can be said of many of the supposedly spiritual Mormon events which come from Mormon accounts. The fact smitchell1 dismisses all of these accounts as myths and states definitively that "I know 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' that Mormonism is false" just screams bias. How does smitchell1 know these things so absolutely? Clearly, smitchell1 has never spoken with God nor believes in such a being, but states definitely to know that such a being does not and can not exist. That is ridiculous.

[_Shulem]

Clearly, smitchell1 has never spoken with God nor believes in such a being, but states definitely to know that such a being does not and can not exist. That is ridiculous.

I assume you've spoken to God who lives in your head and therefore you believe he lives. Goody for you. Unless of course you would like to video tape him or produce a sound recording to show that he lives -- any conversation with God and YOU are just mind producing trips, kind of like being on drugs.

Enjoy your trips.

Paul O

[_ludwigm]

the 10 tribes lived near the North Pole (as Santa's elves?)