Some of MY beliefs......by Jo1952

[_jo1952]

Hi Moksha,

I would like to clarify something in my response to you. The 450 Prophets of Baal whom Elijah slew were not innocents. They were corrupting the beliefs of the Jews. However, because God had not authorized Elijah to kill them, Justice needed to be served. I do not think the spirit of Elijah needs to come back 450 times for Justice to be served for the very reason that the Prophets of Baal were NOT innocents.

Blessings,

jo

[_sheryl]

And these come from the scriptures that made it into a canon created by men of authority who did not want reincarnation taught! Imagine if people had more than one life to find salvation? That sort of takes away the control of the masses by a religious authority, yes? In many Holy Writings that did not make canon, reincarnation is openly discussed and taught.

Buddhism is a religion that teaches reincarnation, and in Buddhism the idea that "we have more than one life to find salvation" is a wrong view, actually it's one of the first things you have to change (the first of the "Four Mind-Changings"). That's because the precious human body is extremely difficult to obtain.

Bottom line, I think you are psychologizing the motivations of the Church Fathers beyond any point where it makes sense. You should be more careful in your approach. Did Origen teach some type of reincarnation? Sure, but a) does that make it Christian b) does that make it true? Also I'd be very curious to hear if you have any sources for early Christian ideas about reincarnation that aren't Origen.

Shalom Samantabhadra!

I appreciate the Buddhist's thoughts that a physical body is difficult to obtain. We would say that all life is precious, and when a personality makes contact with a true Apostle, this is precious and rare and ought not be wasted, for it may be many many lives before such a contact is made again. And liberation without the assistance of one already liberated is difficult even impossible to accomplish in this world.

There are many sources among early Christians who knew about the reincarnation of our spirits, but they remained oral and hidden for 1700 years because the Catholic Church killed those they found who taught about it. It has only been recently that the early Christian writings have been rewritten, as well as discovered in ancient transcripts such as the Nag Hammadi library.

Things are a bit different than what the outer church or mainstream churches followed by the masses of people think. We still have living Apostles among us, who are much like the early Apostles - a true Apostolic succession (chosen and ordained by God - this being obvious by the Christ Presence and Power that they embody. They are able to perform even greater works than Jesus and able to give gifts of the Holy Spirit - to awaken and guide souls to liberation, or to join in the Father's great work.) It has again only been recently that some have become public - they and their companions remained hidden for 1700 years again due to threat of life.

My tradition came out of the Catholic Church in the 1700s when individuals in the west were able to live as non Catholics without threat of death. Our teachings remained oral until this generation, when our current Apostle began to write them down.

As far as suppressing the teachings of reincarnation, no doubt my thoughts and reasons for this are limited. What do you believe was the Catholic Church's intention for doing so? And why do you think all the copies of the texts found in the Nag Hammadi library vanished? Why were no other copies of these gospels found until this library was uncovered?


Shalom!

Sheryl

[_jo1952]

Buddhism is a religion that teaches reincarnation, and in Buddhism the idea that "we have more than one life to find salvation" is a wrong view, actually it's one of the first things you have to change (the first of the "Four Mind-Changings"). That's because the precious human body is extremely difficult to obtain.

Bottom line, I think you are psychologizing the motivations of the Church Fathers beyond any point where it makes sense. You should be more careful in your approach. Did Origen teach some type of reincarnation? Sure, but a) does that make it Christian b) does that make it true? Also I'd be very curious to hear if you have any sources for early Christian ideas about reincarnation that aren't Origen.

Hello S!

Inasmuch as I believe that God has communicated with people all over the earth through His Prophets, I also believe that those who have become religious leaders have more than likely drifted away from the original teachings. Jesus did not point to the Pharisees just to give us a history lesson. I believe He taught us about their errors because that is a pattern of what mankind does. I think Christendom, for the most part, missed the multi-layers of Jesus' purpose for using the Pharisees while He taught the masses. That said, how do you know that what Buddhism believes today correctly reflects what was originally taught? I think it is difficult to truly know what those original teachings were without spiritual enlightenment.

by the way, I think it is entirely possible that those who HAVE achieved Exaltation may choose to return to this world, or to other worlds, and once more receive a body so that they can help others progress; or perhaps even to fulfill a specific mission for God. I believe that our free will is always with us. I do not yet have a reason to believe, therefore, that God would not allow us to use our free will to make this type of choice. It may be possible that a spirit entity which has been Exalted could even travel between the past, the present, and the future of any particular world in order to participate in accomplishing God's purposes for His children. In this way, reincarnation would not be only for the purpose of one spirit entity's achieving Exaltation. Perhaps this is part of a Truth being taught today in Buddhism; only it has been twisted to look like the version you are speaking of. In other words, what they now see as being necessary to achieve Salvation BEFORE any further incarnations take place, could actually be talking about those who had already received Exaltation who have made the choice to return to help others.

Blessings,

jo

[_Samantabhadra]

Hello Sheryl and Jo!

it may be many many lives before such a contact is made again. And liberation without the assistance of one already liberated is difficult even impossible to accomplish in this world.

Yes, this is a very important point.

There are many sources among early Christians who knew about the reincarnation of our spirits

Such as? I've already mentioned Origen. Specific sources other than Origen?

but they remained oral and hidden for 1700 years because the Catholic Church killed those they found who taught about it. It has only been recently that the early Christian writings have been rewritten, as well as discovered in ancient transcripts such as the Nag Hammadi library.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Note I am not disputing the existence of some form of continuity in esoteric Christianity. I am (passingly) familiar with John Dee and Enochian magick. What I want to know is: do you have any specific references in specific Nag Hammadi texts to support this claim?

They are able to perform even greater works than Jesus

In what sense is your belief "Christian" if you are claiming that your teachers "perform even greater works than Jesus?" That is most certainly not what is meant by Apostolic Succession.

As far as suppressing the teachings of reincarnation, no doubt my thoughts and reasons for this are limited. What do you believe was the Catholic Church's intention for doing so? And why do you think all the copies of the texts found in the Nag Hammadi library vanished? Why were no other copies of these gospels found until this library was uncovered?

1) The Catholic Church--more generally, the Apostolic Church--determined that reincarnation was heterodox for two reasons. First, each and every one of us was created by God. Reincarnation complicates this point for obvious reasons. Second, there is a temptation to think, well, if I'm just going to be reincarnated, why should I strive in this life?

2) The Nag Hammadi "Library" was a collection of scrolls in earthenware jugs. It was never a "library." The texts vanished because they were not copied. Texts vanished from the ancient world all the time. There is no need to see a conspiracy.

That said, how do you know that what Buddhism believes today correctly reflects what was originally taught? I think it is difficult to truly know what those original teachings were without spiritual enlightenment.

Absolutely. That's why lineage is so important. In the Apostolic Church, there is an unbroken lineage of masters going back, bishop to bishop to bishop, all the way to the Apostles, and from them to Christ. In Buddhism, lineage serves the same function. My teacher had a teacher, who had a teacher, and so on all the way back to the Buddha.

The other thing to say, and this is a general response to your OP, that I think "what one believes" is only a very small part of the equation. In a Buddhist context, "right view" doesn't mean being able to parrot the "correct" sequence of words as to some particular philosophical position. It goes much deeper than that. You can believe whatever, it's really not important. What is important is your realization of the view.

by the way, I think it is entirely possible that those who HAVE achieved Exaltation may choose to return to this world, or to other worlds, and once more receive a body so that they can help others progress; or perhaps even to fulfill a specific mission for God. I believe that our free will is always with us. I do not yet have a reason to believe, therefore, that God would not allow us to use our free will to make this type of choice. It may be possible that a spirit entity which has been Exalted could even travel between the past, the present, and the future of any particular world in order to participate in accomplishing God's purposes for His children.

It is said that those who achieve Rainbow Body are able to manifest anywhere, anytime, in any form whatsoever.

[_Drifting]

Hi Jo, can you give us some examples of the prophecies given by God through His prophets over the last 12 months or so?

Come on Jo...

[_jo1952]

Hello jo1952,

I don't really have much to add to your comments except I also believe in reincarnation as described in the Edgar Cayce readings.
>>>I want to continue searching for other possible clues in the Bible which could portray that the same spirit has been in more than one body.<<<

I might have some names for you depending on how you feel about Jesus. Do you believe he lived on earth before he became the Christ?

Hello Sleepyhead!

I would be very much interested in hearing the names you are thinking about. My mind is opened to possibilities. Since my human brain is finite and limited in what it can imagine, and the possibilities for finding Truth are infinite, please share away.

It is interesting you have asked about Christ. I have sometimes thought that maybe His spirit was in the body of Melchizedek even though I believe Jesus was the God of Abraham. Also, there is this verse:

Acts 13:36-37 (KJV)

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

The "he" whom God raised again is Jesus; and notice that it says God raised Him "again". This begs the question of where did God raise Him before? If not on this earth, then in another world perhaps? Also, in addition to Jesus Christ being the Son of God, His name, "Christ", might also now be used as a title. For instance, since He teaches us that we can become "one" with Him, and commands us to be perfect [and He is certainly perfect], is it too much of a stretch to believe that in becoming "one" that we, too, may become "Christ" for another world?

There are probably other verses which hint at this; however, I am certainly no expert on where to find specific types of verses. In fact, there are still parts of the Bible which I am not yet able to understand, notwithstanding that many parts speak volumes to me.

Blessings,

jo

[_Black Moclips]

Jo1952 -

I love the ideas and they sound familiar. Makes me think I've read something from you before - JJD perhaps?

[_jo1952]

Multiple probations...a popular idea, these days...however, it has no support in the scriptures. I have a cousin (a woman) who is deep into new age stuff, the Book Of Miracles, things like that. She also believes in multiple probations, it doesn't matter to her what the scriptures say....

Hello Kjones!

Hopefully you have been keeping track of the posts which have followed yours, as they contain information which happen to address your concern.

I would also like to offer this verse for your consideration, as it may also be speaking of reincarnation:

2 Peter 1:15 (KJV)

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

The Greek definition of this use of the word "endeavour" is: to be eager and diligent.

I would like to expand a little on what Sheryl has shared with us. by the way, I see her as a spirit who has achieved a great deal of spiritual enlightenment; much, much, much moreso than my humble efforts have achieved.

The Jewish Kabbalah had been an oral tradition handed down through the ages until the Christian era. Here is some of what Lance S. Owens wrote in his article, "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection". This article won the Best Article Award for 1995 from the Mormon History Association.

In centuries past the teachings of the Kabbalah were closely guarded and taught to a chosen few, but today the Jewish Kabbalah is being taught to anyone with a unveiled spiritual perception and a desire to learn. Joseph Smith had a desire to learn.

The Kabbalah--the Hebrew esoteric doctrines--is a system of teachings with which only the very learned attempt to wrestle. It is claimed to have been handed down by oral tradition from angelic sources, through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Seventy Elders, to David and to Solomon. "Man has ears to hear, but hears not, He has eyes to see, but sees not.” King David.

King David was a great warrior by day and a great mystic of the Kabbalah by night. Many of the great Cabbalists of history made reference to the above quote when illustrating one of the first spiritual laws of Life. No attempt was made to commit this sacred knowledge to writing, till, in the early centuries of the Christian era (authorities differ widely as to the date). The pupils of Rabbi Simeon ben Joachi put his teachings into writing; and this in later ages became known as the "Zohar," or "Book of Splendor religion of the Kabbalah as a gift of the Deity to mankind."

The Zohar, which is only a part of the Kabbalah, is the great store-house of the esoteric teaching of the ancient Hebrews. The following is a quote from the Sephar ha Zohar. "The souls must re-enter the Absolute, from whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this end they must develop the perfections; the germ of which is planted in them. And if they have not developed these traits in this one life, then they must commence another, a third, and so forth. They must go on like this until they acquire the condition that allows them to associate again with God".

Since our Old Testament came from the Jews, I think that the Kabbalah should also be of great interest to Christendom.

Blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

Jo1952 -

I love the ideas and they sound familiar. Makes me think I've read something from you before - JJD perhaps?

Hello Black Moclips!

I am guessing that JJD is another website for apologetics? I would be interested to know the full name of the website so that I could go there and browse; so no, I have not posted there before.

Blessings,

jo

[_kjones]

Hi, Jo1952,

Thanks for your reply but it all sounds very New-Agey to me, and I have an aversion to New Age stuff. I was married to a New Age Mormon--far more New Age than Mormon--for 8 years, and saw first hand how her New Age beliefs affected her behavior and ultimately our marriage (not that our divorce was all her fault). And then there is my cousin, off to India to seek wisdom, all the talk of "the Budha-Christ connect", the Kabbala.... In all she is an extremely selfish individual who is a law unto herself....