The Law vs God (Alma 42)

[_Drifting]

i don't believe that He did, i know it.
I know it the same way you know love, as you have given it and received it.

Which is how, exactly?

[_subgenius]

i don't believe that He did, i know it.
I know it the same way you know love, as you have given it and received it.

Which is how, exactly?

that answer seems more appropriate for you to offer.

[_Drifting]

i don't believe that He did, i know it.
I know it the same way you know love, as you have given it and received it.

Which is how, exactly?

that answer seems more appropriate for you to offer.

Wriggle wriggle wriggle....
Just say if you don't know.

[_subgenius]

Which is how, exactly?

that answer seems more appropriate for you to offer.

Wriggle wriggle wriggle....
Just say if you don't know.

ditto

[_Drifting]

Which is how, exactly?

that answer seems more appropriate for you to offer.

Wriggle wriggle wriggle....
Just say if you don't know.

ditto

Given that you are the one asserting God manifested Himself to you it seems the onus is on you to answer. Me, I have no idea how God manifests himself to you. Hence the question.

Feel free to run away from answering questions on a thread you yourself started...

[_Themis]

Alma 42

This chapter ponders the question of why the atonement was necessary. I mean surely God has the authority and power to "forgive mankind", correct? Or is God subject to the Law? Is the Law what was created by God or what created God?

Certainly we can all agree that God can not lie...this is an impossible for position for God and is utterly and completely contrary to His very nature and character.
So, when reading Alma 42 we are confronted with the Law of Justice and the Law of Mercy. Their resolution is relatively simple and explains why exactly Christ had to perform the act He performed. The atonement was not a requirement of God but of the Law, a requirement God was unable to transcend as it is that very Law which defines Him. This is, for example, why we view the 10 commandments as eternal and why they can not be "repealed". The requirement for an atonement could not be averted, could not be mitigated, could not be denied nor ignored...simply put - it had to be fulfilled. God was bound by the Law for the atonement for there was no other option for Him. Some of you may claim that He simply fell upon His own sword; which would be an interesting argument if one can present it as such - but i contend that God was, by His nature and character, unable to act in any other way and that His love was manifest by the sacrifice which serves us all.

based on this reasoning, the notion i propose is this:
The Law can not be circumvented, even by God.


I bring this topic up, because i consider it as illuminating towards the flaws inherent in Sola Gratia.

Not very supernatural as defined by Subby. Funny how you go back and forth as you need to for each issue.

[_subgenius]

Given that you are the one asserting God manifested Himself to you it seems the onus is on you to answer. Me, I have no idea how God manifests himself to you. Hence the question.

i did answer it quite clearly, and specific to you.
just because you did not like the answer does not mean the answer was not given.

Feel free to run away from answering questions on a thread you yourself started...

you seem better at that than me so i will leave that to you, but thanks for offering the absolution.

[Guest]

Because God is subject to the Law. As i stated above, the Law of Justice and the Law of Mercy are discussed in Alma 42 to the point you bring up here.

So the Law of Justice and the Law of Mercy requires that an innocent being be cruelly tortured to death to atone for the sins of the guilty? Insane rubbish!

I can see good reasons for voluntarily joining a church or other charitable organization and contributing to worthwile activities that offer help, comfort and love to others in need, and participating in fellowship and community activities that benefit all, but I don't see the justice in condemning anyone for not joining the "right" church or organization, or for choosing to independently do good works on one's own initiative.

I do not have the power to condemn others. Your judgment may be confused on the topic.
Is it your position that God has no requirement for anyone to "join" a church?

Judging by the fact that God (if he/she? exists) has not provided any unambigous or reliable means of determining which of the mutitudinous, mutually contradictory religious claims (if any) are correct (see my "Bottom Line" thread), I find it very hard to believe that God really gives a hoot about whether we formally "join" a church, let alone only one particular church. I acknowledge, though, that if one is serious about doing one's best to help others and make a worthwhile contribution to society, one can do that more effectively as part of some dedicated, charitably minded, well organized group (not necessarily a Church) than as an individual.

[_Drifting]

Given that you are the one asserting God manifested Himself to you it seems the onus is on you to answer. Me, I have no idea how God manifests himself to you. Hence the question.

i did answer it quite clearly, and specific to you.
just because you did not like the answer does not mean the answer was not given.

Feel free to run away from answering questions on a thread you yourself started...

you seem better at that than me so i will leave that to you, but thanks for offering the absolution.

Once again you studiously duck and dive, wriggle and squirm, in an effort to avoid being specific with your answer. You didn't answer clearly, as everyone on this thread (that you started) can see. You said it was in the same way that I feel things and yet, you have absolutely no idea how I feel things.

The question remains - how did God manifest himself to you?

[_PrickKicker]

Alma 42

This chapter ponders the question of why the atonement was necessary. I mean surely God has the authority and power to "forgive mankind", correct? Or is God subject to the Law? Is the Law what was created by God or what created God?

Certainly we can all agree that God can not lie...this is an impossible for position for God and is utterly and completely contrary to His very nature and character.
So, when reading Alma 42 we are confronted with the Law of Justice and the Law of Mercy. Their resolution is relatively simple and explains why exactly Christ had to perform the act He performed. The atonement was not a requirement of God but of the Law, a requirement God was unable to transcend as it is that very Law which defines Him. This is, for example, why we view the 10 commandments as eternal and why they can not be "repealed". The requirement for an atonement could not be averted, could not be mitigated, could not be denied nor ignored...simply put - it had to be fulfilled. God was bound by the Law for the atonement for there was no other option for Him. Some of you may claim that He simply fell upon His own sword; which would be an interesting argument if one can present it as such - but i contend that God was, by His nature and character, unable to act in any other way and that His love was manifest by the sacrifice which serves us all.

based on this reasoning, the notion i propose is this:
The Law can not be circumvented, even by God.

I bring this topic up, because i consider it as illuminating towards the flaws inherent in Sola Gratia.

Interesting...

I would say in answer to one of your many rhetorical questions...

The notion I propose is, Moses and various Mosi, Modern Moseses, invented and reinvented the concept of God, to convince other not so clever intelligence's, that the 10 / 13, most important things that were the cause of antisocial behavior amongst their community should be established and as they were just men trying to rule, compass and square the people into their way of thinking.
and so I put it to you that God, Justice, mercy, Law and Alma are all concepts concocted by mankind for mankind so that the men at the top of the pyramid could take early retirement and shag all the women.

In the name of Cheese and Rice... AMEN!