The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _bcspace »

Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. .

Right, because ancient Hebrew civilization was well known for its Free Market Capitalism.


Wrong. They couldn't handle God's actual law so they had to be whipped into salvation via the Law of Moses. The only reason it worked is because Christ was the culmination of it. Now that we are under the Gospel law, more responsibility falls on us.

See also what Jesus taught. Lay up treasures in heaven. Invest your talents. Being good with money essential for salvation. One is judged by how much one has improved their lot in life. We can't be commanded in all things. LoC advocates private property and requires an FMC to work. Etc. The Gospel is FMC and a complete rejection of socialism.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _moksha »

Wonder what a planet amortized over 40,000 millennia would set you back?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _bcspace »

I'd rather roll my own.

;)
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

moksha wrote:The act of injecting politics into religion seems like a desecration of the sacred in order to promote the worldly.


1. How can certain key political questions (such as those aspects of the human condition - those that ask the question, with Aristotle, "How should we live together," - not be "injected" into religion, which asks fundamentally the same questions of human beings in community with each other? Or rather, how can religion not be understood as inexcricably linked with politics, provided we are not speaking of Robinson Crusoe but actual human societies?

The Judeo-Christian tradition specifically understands active engagement with culture and politics, far from a desecration of the spiritual, a fundamental and dynamic component of it, without which religion would be virtually pointless.

Keeping them separate is the wisest course of action.


From both an LDS and broadly Judeo-Christian perspective, the idea of the core questions and problems falling under the rubric of politics being kept separate from the core questions of life and human relations is neither possible nor even really conceivable from within a religious (and, in particular, a restored gospel) frame of reference (nor from the political, as the endless attempts by the secular political world to colonize and annex to itself the same fundamental questions of life with which religion deals and to displace religion as central in negotiating those questions, attests).

When the priest start touting the case of property rights, it makes them more partakers of Mammon than worshipers of God.


I see no reason why this should be the case (why is the question of property rights not a fundamentally religious question, being, as it is, ultimately a moral/ethical question (see the seventh and tenth commandments).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

bcspace wrote:Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. It's the only system wherein agency exists, is completely neutral, and where enticements towards good or evil can operate to the salvation of mankind. It's also the only system wherein a United Order can operate an be successful.


I think this is key. The moral neutrality of free-market economic relations, which is to say the provision of an open, free, rule of law based society with:

1. Minimal barriers to entrance into employment and/or entrepreneurial activity

2. An open, dynamic, expanding field of opportunity in economic matters irrespective of class or ethnic origins.

3. A rule of law and equality under the law based social order (representative-democratic) in which fraud and charlatanry are controlled and sanctioned by a civil and criminal justice system

4. Strictly limited, non-invasive government that involves itself very little in the personal economic affairs of a citizenry save to enforce laws against fraud, deception, and trespasses against the unalienable rights of others in business dealings.

5. A regime of low, fair, morally defensible, constitutionally legitimate, economically stimulative taxation and minimal, rational business regulation.

is central to understanding why it is both rationally and morally the underlying structure of the United Order as well as of the Constitution and the founding principles of America (and LDS doctrine, let us all remember, posits the Constitution as a divinely inspired - above just being brilliant and imaginative - political document).

That which is unfortunately called "capitalism" is nothing more than liberty in the economic realm; it is free-agency applied and practiced in matters of economics - catallactics, in the broadest sense. As in all matters of the mortal "probationary state," not just agency, but free agency - the ability to use and an environment conducive to agency's decision and determination making capacity against a background of alternatives, is central to the workings of plan of salvation (as well as human happiness and felicity in the mortal realm).

Thus the intersection between religion and politics occurs primarily in 2 Nephi 2 and wherever the war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer, or the purpose/reason of earth life is detailed. We are either free to choose salvation (FMC system) or someone is trying to force salvation on us.


Exactly, and just as I've been arguing for years and as this point comes up in the book I've been working on for years on the subject. The intersection between the gospel and politics is in the politics of the war in Heaven; in the conflict between the two grand plans of how the mortal probation would be structured and what would be possible within it.


Socialism, Liberalism, Dictatorship etc. are, by official LDS doctrinal definition, part of the church of the Devil.


Hard, hard doctrine, unfortunately, for some. No one, as I've pointed out umpteen times before in this and other forums, seems to have too much problem with denunciation of National Socialism (Nazism) as evil and as, from an LDS perspective, part of the GAAC. The problem only seems to arise when the term socialism or communism comes up without the appellation "national" and the high, noble, and lofty talk of "equality," "equity," "brotherhood," "fairness," "the poor," and fundamentally changing human nature and perfecting humankind through in the light of grand ideological theories of human redemption seems to shut down rational thinking processes and a retreat into pristine, idealistic realms among the clouds fills the void left by the abandonment of critical thought, the lessons of history, and gospel teaching.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

Molok wrote:
bcspace wrote:Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. .

Right, because ancient Hebrew civilization was well known for its Free Market Capitalism.



Upon what basis is ancient Hebrew civilization the settled and established model of the United Order, a Zion civilization, or present, latter-day doctrine?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

Droopy wrote:
bcspace wrote:Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. It's the only system wherein agency exists, is completely neutral, and where enticements towards good or evil can operate to the salvation of mankind. It's also the only system wherein a United Order can operate an be successful.


I think this is key. The moral neutrality of free-market economic relations, which is to say the provision of an open, free, rule of law based society with:

1. Minimal barriers to entrance into employment and/or entrepreneurial activity

2. An open, dynamic, expanding field of opportunity in economic matters irrespective of class or ethnic origins.

3. A rule of law and equality under the law based social order (representative-democratic) in which fraud and charlatanry are controlled and sanctioned by a civil and criminal justice system

4. Strictly limited, non-invasive government that involves itself very little in the personal economic affairs of a citizenry save to enforce laws against fraud, deception, and trespasses against the unalienable rights of others in business dealings.

5. A regime of low, fair, morally defensible, constitutionally legitimate, economically stimulative taxation and minimal, rational business regulation.

is central to understanding why it is both rationally and morally the underlying structure of the United Order as well as of the Constitution and the founding principles of America (and LDS doctrine, let us all remember, posits the Constitution as a divinely inspired - above just being brilliant and imaginative - political document).

That which is unfortunately called "capitalism" is nothing more than liberty in the economic realm; it is free-agency applied and practiced in matters of economics - catallactics, in the broadest sense. As in all matters of the mortal "probationary state," not just agency, but free agency - the ability to use and an environment conducive to agency's decision and determination making capacity against a background of alternatives, is central to the workings of plan of salvation (as well as human happiness and felicity in the mortal realm).

Thus the intersection between religion and politics occurs primarily in 2 Nephi 2 and wherever the war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer, or the purpose/reason of earth life is detailed. We are either free to choose salvation (FMC system) or someone is trying to force salvation on us.


Exactly, and just as I've been arguing for years and as this point comes up in the book I've been working on for years on the subject. The intersection between the gospel and politics is in the politics of the war in Heaven; in the conflict between the two grand plans of how the mortal probation would be structured and what would be possible within it.


Socialism, Liberalism, Dictatorship etc. are, by official LDS doctrinal definition, part of the church of the Devil.


Hard, hard doctrine, unfortunately, for some. No one, as I've pointed out umpteen times before in this and other forums, seems to have too much problem with denunciation of National Socialism (Nazism) as evil and as, from an LDS perspective, part of the GAAC. The problem only seems to arise when the term socialism or communism comes up without the appellation "national" and the high, noble, and lofty talk of "equality," "equity," "brotherhood," "fairness," "the poor," and fundamentally changing human nature and perfecting humankind through in the light of grand ideological theories of human redemption seems to shut down rational thinking processes and a retreat into pristine, idealistic realms among the clouds fills the void left by the abandonment of critical thought, the lessons of history, and gospel teaching.




There is something of ultimate importance I should have added to this: What the gospel is after (as with the founders), is a free and virtuous society. Virtue flourishes best in a free, open social and economic order, and a free and open social and economic order is not ultimately sustainable without virtue, morality, and righteousness. Hence, free agency makes real virtue possible, and virtue sustains and expands the realm of freedom.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Tarski
_Emeritus
Posts: 3059
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. .


God's in it for the money. OK, that makes sense since his church clearly is.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

Gadianton wrote:a. The nature of freedom,

man has free agency (libertarian freedom)

b. Political and individual liberty,

We are free to do what we want, but if we displease God (the great leader), he will torture us and destroy us.

c. Property rights,

God owns everything, we are serfs. The road to serfdom starts in the LDS chapel

d. Theories and forms of economic and social
organization,

"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates"..doesn't matter, we obey the law. we obey the great leader, if the great leader is our leader.

e. The tension between the individual and the
group, between liberty and equality, between personal
morality and the moral diffusion of mass consciousness.
and the psychology of collectivism.

the only tension between the individual and the group occurs when either of the aforementioned falls under the Church while the other party falls under banal outside society. There is no tension between an individual saints and a group of saints. The whole of a group of Saints is greater than the sum if its parts, indicating the Marxist idea of holism and collectivism is true.



The Celestial Room at the MDB: "The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only.

Care to participate, Gad?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part II

Post by _Droopy »

Tarski wrote:
bcspace wrote:Free Market Capitalism is THE replication of God's economy as God Himself is a Free Market Capitalist. .


God's in it for the money. OK, that makes sense since his church clearly is.



See above. Care to participate?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
Post Reply