Who is the Mormon God?

[_Fence Sitter]

How does the average Joe/Jane sitting in the pew visualize God when he/she talks about God? Which of the following three assessments of God best describes what you believe to be the normal Mormon concept of God?

1. A finite, procreated being with a procreated spirit and tangible body of flesh and bones who exists as part of an infinite lineage of like Gods, who possesses finite-though sufficiently perfected-- attributes and qualities, and who is eternally progressing in knowledge and power.

2. An infinite, eternal and (biologically and spatio-temporally) transcendent being with infinite knowledge and power who is immanent, though not physically, through the power of his spirit.

3. Some combination of the first two choices.


The question is of interest to me since I believe he is represented both ways in Mormonism and I think they cannot overlap. I also think we want him to be both ways, our divine father with an exalted body, who we want to be just like someday and our God who will always be THE Creator.

First
the "turtles all the way down" is a sophmoric argument..easily rebutted with the notion that if a vulture can hover in the sky with a snake in its grasp for various lengths of time, then how hard is it to realize that a powerful being such as God could not hold up the earth for billions of years?

Second
I am often fascinated with what variouspeople consider as being the "nature of God". I often consider many atheists to be amusing in how they promote their disbelief in God when they do not even understand correctly who, or what, God is...that type of irony can't be bought in any store.
This is why 1 Cor 3:1-2 is so applicable on this topic.

https://www.LDS.org/topics/god-the-father?lang=eng
"God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's” (D&C 130:22)."

But what about the believer?
1 Cor 2:5,9
"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God...
..But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

now follow closely

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God...
..Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Thanks for responding Sub.

So far from your reply I see one physical description.
He has a body of flesh and bone. The rest of what you are saying, I believe are attributes and abilities, which are not descriptive of the physical nature of God himself. I am not denying he has those but I think we are jumping ahead of ourselves. If that is changing the goal posts, I apologize for not being clear in my OP. I would first like to understand how you view the fundamental physical nature of God before we consider how that nature might interact with his abilities and attributes.

Feel free to explain if you feel differently.

So in addition to a physical body of flesh and bone, what more might you say about him? Surely you think his is a glorified body? Is it the same body he has always had or did he evolve into it? Are our own bodies capable of achieving the same physical state of his? By the way, I promise no CFR's on my part. I really don't care if you can support what you believe from written scripture, published doctrine, etc or not. I am interested in the concept you have when you picture God.

No limits here Sub, feel free to reject any and all my suggestions and go what ever way you wish.
"A body of flesh and bone"..... and?
Please describe precisely as possible the nature of the being you call God?

[_tagriffy]

So in addition to a physical body of flesh and bone, what more might you say about him? Surely you think his is a glorified body? Is it the same body he has always had or did he evolve into it? Are our own bodies capable of achieving the same physical state of his? By the way, I promise no CFR's on my part. I really don't care if you can support what you believe from written scripture, published doctrine, etc or not. I am interested in the concept you have when you picture God.

No limits here Sub, feel free to reject any and all my suggestions and go what ever way you wish.
"A body of flesh and bone"..... and?
Please describe precisely as possible the nature of the being you call God?

The problem here is that anything beyond what we have here moves into pure speculation. We have D&C 132:22, we have the King Follett Discourse (KFD), and that's about it. Beyond that, we have Brigham Young's Adam-God theory, which is not generally accepted anymore. Then we have Heavenly Mother, which is all but denied by the Church nowadays. As authoritative or semi-authoritative sources go, that's about it. God has a physical body, and it follows from KFD that it is a glorified body. And ... what? It depends on what having a glorified body means, and that's exactly what we don't know.

We could appeal to the Gospel accounts of Christ's resurrection, but that would probably involve overly literalistic readings of stories that were already interpreted too literally before they were written down. Other than that, you have 1 Cor. 15:39ff., which makes things about as clear as mud.

In the end we have "a body of flesh and bone" and ... try to make do with everything else.

[_Tobin]

The problem here is that anything beyond what we have here moves into pure speculation. We have D&C 132:22, we have the King Follett Discourse (KFD), and that's about it. Beyond that, we have Brigham Young's Adam-God theory, which is not generally accepted anymore. Then we have Heavenly Mother, which is all but denied by the Church nowadays. As authoritative or semi-authoritative sources go, that's about it. God has a physical body, and it follows from KFD that it is a glorified body. And ... what? It depends on what having a glorified body means, and that's exactly what we don't know.

We could appeal to the Gospel accounts of Christ's resurrection, but that would probably involve overly literalistic readings of stories that were already interpreted too literally before they were written down. Other than that, you have 1 Cor. 15:39ff., which makes things about as clear as mud.

In the end we have "a body of flesh and bone" and ... try to make do with everything else.

What do you mean that is all we have? Perhaps you don't understand what Mormons know and how it plugs into what we know about the universe.

Let's start with what we know about the universe:
1) Our universe contains more stars than there are grains of sand on all the beaches on Earth.
2) Intelligent life evolved on our world.
3) Given the shear numbers of stars in the universe, it is very likely our planet is not the only one with intelligent life to evolve on it.
4) Now imagine if such intelligent life were even a billion years more advanced than ourselves. They would seem like gods in comparison to ourselves. Call them hyper-advanced beings or God.

Now - what does Mormonism tell us?
1) God, these hyper-advance beings, evolved on anther planet that orbits a star called Kolob (King Follet/Book of Abraham).
2) God, these hyper-advance beings, introduced two beings modeled on human-beings (Adam and Eve) into our biosphere thousands of years ago. As a result these beings basically colonized our planet.
3) God, these hyper-advance beings, have from time-to-time guided and directed us. What do the accounts say about these encounters? Some spectacular manifestation is usually made (a pillar of fire and so on). This would seems like impressive abilities to primitive man. Also, these beings impart laws, guidance, and in many Mormon accounts technology.
4) God, these hyper-advanced beings, have the technology to overcome mortality. This is something we can even envision doing ourselves someday.
5) God only asks us to behave in an orderly manner and improve ourselves and societies.
6) Due to the colonization, our bodies have a soul (A.I. program + energy matrix) that will be literally saved after we die. If we are willing to do as God has asked, we will continue to advance and may one day be Celestial beings and help form spirits ourselves. These will in turn colonize other worlds and this cycle will repeat.

It is an astonishing insight into the nature and order of the universe if true. It not only fits what we know about the universe (and the almost certainty that there are god-like beings), but gives an insight as to what these hyper-advanced beings are up to and how it relates to us (and our religious traditions).

[_tagriffy]

Since Fence Sitter seemed to be asking about the nature of God's body (he or she will have to correct me if I am wrong) as the beginning point of the discussion, I limited my remarks to God's body alone. However true the rest of your points may be, they don't directly address the nature of the question I thought was being asked.

[_Tobin]

Since Fence Sitter seemed to be asking about the nature of God's body (he or she will have to correct me if I am wrong) as the beginning point of the discussion, I limited my remarks to God's body alone. However true the rest of your points may be, they don't directly address the nature of the question I thought was being asked.

Well - if all you are doing is limiting your comments to the nature of God's body, my response would be that such beings would be synthetic. It is unlikely to be of human form and probably reflects the form that God naturally evolved as when it was a biological being. The reason I say that is God states he is a flesh (physical) and spirit (some kind of energy matrix). I can't imagine how biological system could be eternal. And even now, our species is contemplating how we might replace our own organs and eventually our own bodies with synthetic parts.

[_Bazooka]

Since Fence Sitter seemed to be asking about the nature of God's body (he or she will have to correct me if I am wrong) as the beginning point of the discussion, I limited my remarks to God's body alone. However true the rest of your points may be, they don't directly address the nature of the question I thought was being asked.

Well - if all you are doing is limiting your comments to the nature of God's body, my response would be that such beings would be synthetic. It is unlikely to be of human form and probably reflects the form that God naturally evolved as when it was a biological being. The reason I say that is God states he is a flesh (physical) and spirit (some kind of energy matrix). I can't imagine how biological system could be eternal. And even now, our species is contemplating how we might replace our own organs and eventually our own bodies with synthetic parts.

But dude, you've met God.
Was His body synthetic?

[_tagriffy]

Since Fence Sitter seemed to be asking about the nature of God's body (he or she will have to correct me if I am wrong) as the beginning point of the discussion, I limited my remarks to God's body alone. However true the rest of your points may be, they don't directly address the nature of the question I thought was being asked.

Well - if all you are doing is limiting your comments to the nature of God's body, my response would be that such beings would be synthetic. It is unlikely to be of human form and probably reflects the form that God naturally evolved as when it was a biological being. The reason I say that is God states he is a flesh (physical) and spirit (some kind of energy matrix). I can't imagine how biological system could be eternal. And even now, our species is contemplating how we might replace our own organs and eventually our own bodies with synthetic parts.

That is certainly an idea, and one could well call on 1 Cor. 15:39ff to support it. Until I see where Fence Sitter wants to take the discussion, I'm trying to limit speculation.

[_Fence Sitter]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for responding.

No limits on where you want to take the discussion because I find notions and descriptions of the LDS God interesting in all their manifestations.

My focus is simply exploring how the average LDS believer conceptualizes the physical bodies of God (both Elohim and JC) when he/she is talking about them. I am not asking posters to support their views via scriptures of other LDS related publications (though they may if they wish), but merely to express their own opinion on what is meant or pictured about God's bodies when talking about the two beings. Mostly I am trying to explore if when one LDS person uses the term God does the listener visualize the same person/being.

In response to you comment

In the end we have "a body of flesh and bone" and ... try to make do with everything else.

while that is part of what LDS think of, I don't think it is limited to just that. Certainly the conceptualization of God would include some sort of differences between a human body of flesh and bone and a divine one.

What would they be?

[_tagriffy]

I'm hardly the average LDS believer. I don't have a particular image in mind. If anything, there is only a "not." You may be familiar with paintings of the First Vision where the Father and Son are portrayed as identical twins based on Heb. 1:3. It's great in terms of mythological significance, but I don't think we need to take things that literally. It is probably enough that the Father is humanoid in appearance. Beyond that, I really don't speculate much about the differences between a human body and a divine one. I just pretty much stick with Paul in 1 Cor. 15:39ff. The bodies are recognizable, tangible in some sense, and yet also very different. I think the resurrection accounts in the Gospels are attempts of the authors to try and understand what happened and shouldn't be mistaken for what the reality is. As far as God's body goes, that is where I personally leave it.

[_Fence Sitter]

I'm hardly the average LDS believer. I don't have a particular image in mind. If anything, there is only a "not." You may be familiar with paintings of the First Vision where the Father and Son are portrayed as identical twins based on Heb. 1:3. It's great in terms of mythological significance, but I don't think we need to take things that literally. It is probably enough that the Father is humanoid in appearance. Beyond that, I really don't speculate much about the differences between a human body and a divine one. I just pretty much stick with Paul in 1 Cor. 15:39ff. The bodies are recognizable, tangible in some sense, and yet also very different. I think the resurrection accounts in the Gospels are attempts of the authors to try and understand what happened and shouldn't be mistaken for what the reality is. As far as God's body goes, that is where I personally leave it.

Care to offer an opinion about what you think the average LDS concept would be, if in your opinion, there is such a thing?

As a side note, what sense are we to make of promises of eternal bodies and eternal procreation, if we have only vague notions of what such bodies would entail? It almost sounds like it isn't important what they are, only that we have them someday.