What is the Book of Abraham?

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_tomhardman
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _tomhardman »

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the warm welcome, and you've given me some great feedback - thank you! I learned quite a few things, including the fact that the "red ink" argument is incorrect. (I've gotten quite a bit of feedback about that, here and elsewhere.) I will revise that part of my essay.

Fence Sitter - thanks for the link to the article about Facsimile #1. Do you have any recommendations for articles, books, etc. that talk about anachronisms in the Book of Abraham?

Kevin - I appreciate the kind words about my family! Thankfully my girls look like their mother.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

tomhardman wrote:
Fence Sitter - thanks for the link to the article about Facsimile #1. Do you have any recommendations for articles, books, etc. that talk about anachronisms in the Book of Abraham?



The literature regarding the Book of Abraham is extensive. I will have to do some digging to see which articles specifically address textual problems. Off the top of my head I can think of two critical books that deal with many of these issues.

For starters I would recommend By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles Larson This is cheap and easily obtainable. It has a decent color fold out of the papyri, but it is over 20 years old and a lot more research has been done since then.

The second critical book I would recommend is The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition by Pobert Ritner. This highly technical work, published in 2011, deals mainly with a comparison of translations done over the years by Nibley, Baer, Gee, Rhodes and Ritner. While the translation comparisons maybe may not be of interest, the opening essays by Ritner, Marquardt, Coenen & Woods deal directly with historical and textual problems. Ritner deals extensively in his footnotes with Book of Abraham problems by LDS Egyptologist. The footnotes alone are very interesting! It also has the best published color photos of all the extant papyri. (Though they are also available to view at the Joseph Smith Papers Project site.) The problem with Ritner's book is it was a limited edition and is almost $200.00 to buy.


Upon reflection I have reworded my 5th criticism about textual problems because originally it seems to only deal with anachronisms when in fact the problems are varied and much more extensive. The problems with the text itself include, but are not limited to; anachronisms, misuse of terms, directionality of text, dependence on a shadowy fictional character or at least a character for whom there is very little evidence he ever existed, an astronomical system incompatible with known astronomy (why would God instruct Abraham to teach the Egyptians such a bizarre system?), direct reliance on contemporary sources for story lines which strongly indicate it is a product of the 19th century, and so on. Here is how I would word the 5th argument.

5. Critical examination of the text itself shows it to be exactly what one would find in a text authored in the 19th century by someone familiar with sources such as the Bible, Josephus and The Antiquities of Freemasonry by George Oliver and due to its dependence on contemporary astronomical theories.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Brackite
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _Brackite »

Hello Tom,

I would also recommend reading the essay, 'Examining the Book of Abraham' by Kevin Mathie, which is available online.
Here is the link to this essay:

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_TOC.html
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Bazooka
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _Bazooka »

Brackite wrote:Hello Tom,

I would also recommend reading the essay, 'Examining the Book of Abraham' by Kevin Mathie, which is available online.
Here is the link to this essay:

http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_TOC.html


This is an excellent essay in readable chunks.


Conclusions

So, what are some of the conclusions we can draw on the Book of Abraham? Let's review a few points:

Point #1: Joseph Smith was clear in his statements and in his writings that he was "translating" text from the papyri in his hands. Furthermore, Church leaders after Joseph, beginning with Brigham Young, were adamant that the Book of Abraham is a holograph written by the hand of Abraham himself. If the Church is inspired with continuing revelation, then even if Joseph Smith said absolutely nothing on the subject, all the later commentaries by Church leaders make it clear that this is the stance the Church has taken.

Point #2: Scholars now know how to read ancient Egyptian thoroughly, and are very familiar with ancient Egyptian religious concepts and practices. Yes, there are some holes in their knowledge, as there are in any subject one may study, but the fact remains that since the Egyptians wrote so much about the afterlife and their gods, we know a tremendous amount about their belief system.

Point #3: The very same papyri that were used in the creation of the Book of Abraham, can be, and have been, translated by competent Egyptologists (including those at BYU). The result being that absolutely no mention of Abraham exists in said documents, nor do the papyri contain anything close to the text of the Book of Abraham.

Point #4: The existing Facsimiles have been thoroughly examined by Egyptologists and have been found to be very different point by point from Joseph Smith's interpretations. At best, there are only superficial similarities in but a few figures. In fact, the whole purpose of the Facsimiles are completely different than we're led to believe: traditionally, the Church would have us believe that the Facsimiles were illustrations found in the Book of Abraham and are closely associated with it, while the reality is that they were burial documents from two different people buried years apart, and only brought together by chance many, many centuries after their deaths.

Point #5: The text of the Book of Abraham has serious anachronisms — names of people and places that did not exist in Abraham's day. Even Facsimile #1 could not have been produced "by the hand" of Abraham, having been dated to be at least 14 centuries too recent. Additionally, there are specific concepts in the Book of Abraham that reflects a 19th-century, Newtonian cosmology.

Conclusions: From my perspective, the only possible conclusion is that the Book of Abraham is not what Joseph Smith claimed. It may be that he thought he was producing a holograph from Abraham, but it's clear that this wasn't the case.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_SteelHead
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _SteelHead »

The Book of Abraham is a triple decker, heaping baloney sandwich, with extra bs sauce served hot on a kaiser roll with a dill pickle.

In short it is a stake through the heart of a fraud.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_LittleNipper
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _LittleNipper »

_Bazooka
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _Bazooka »



Overview of LDS position
As is made clear by the introduction to the Book of Abraham, the church maintains that, regardless of what the surviving facsimiles and scrolls indicate, the Book of Abraham is a sacred book of scripture and was written by the hand of Abraham.[3] It is taught alongside the Old Testament in Sunday School, included in the curriculum for institute and taught in church universities for the Pearl of Great Price religion courses. Since it contains teachings about the pre-mortal life, some of the mysteries of God, and the eternal nature of spirits, it is a vital part of LDS canon. Most active Latter-day Saints are unaware of any controversy surrounding the book.

Overview of Critics' position
LDS critics point out that, since the original Papyri have been examined by both LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists and both groups have indicated clearly that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham or anything mentioned in the LDS scripture,[4] the Book of Abraham cannot have been translated from the scrolls as Joseph Smith claims and is therefore a false book of scripture. Also, since the translations of the facsimiles were taken from copies of the original papyri and each contains such blatant translation errors as listing drawings of women as men and canopic jars as idols, critics reject the claim made by apologists that the Book of Abraham was translated from scrolls that were lost. Even more blatant, is that Joseph identified specific characters on the facsimiles and gave their translations that Egyptologists say are completely in error.


That just about sums it up.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_jordon3
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _jordon3 »

wow it just goes to show you that cults believe what they want to believe even when the "facts" are staring at them in the face. The fact is the the Book of Abraham is a fraud which makes Joseph Smith a fraud....which makes the whole Mormon church crumble to the ground. ie if Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham and plagerized the Book of Mormon then what truth are they basing their organization on. Joseph Smith has been proved to be an adulterous person, a pedophile and the Mormons STILL consider him a true prophet. WOW if ones actually reads the Bible they will see that Joseph Smith doesn not qualify for being a true prophet in any way shape or form. I am staring to see how people get trapped in cults like Mormonism, Jehovah witness, sceintolgy etc etc. THE FACT IS NO CHURCH NO ORGANIZATION, NO RELIGION WILL SAVE YOU.......ONLY THE REAL Jesus OF THE Bible CAN SAVE YOU KNOW MATTER WERE YOU ARE SITUATED. READ WHAT Jesus SAYS IN JOHN 14:6 .....Mormonism WILL NOT SAVE YOU...............ONLY THE REAL Jesus AND BELEIVE ME THE Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus IN THE Bible IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM,
The fact is Joseph Smith lied and deceived people . so how on earth can you trust anything he said.
_subgenius
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _subgenius »

Jason15 wrote:wow it just goes to show you that cults believe what they want to believe even when the "facts" are staring at them in the face. The fact is the the Book of Abraham is a fraud which makes Joseph Smith a fraud....which makes the whole Mormon church crumble to the ground. ie if Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham and plagerized the Book of Mormon then what truth are they basing their organization on. Joseph Smith has been proved to be an adulterous person, a pedophile and the Mormons STILL consider him a true prophet. WOW if ones actually reads the Bible they will see that Joseph Smith doesn not qualify for being a true prophet in any way shape or form. I am staring to see how people get trapped in cults like Mormonism, Jehovah witness, sceintolgy etc etc. THE FACT IS NO CHURCH NO ORGANIZATION, NO RELIGION WILL SAVE YOU.......ONLY THE REAL Jesus OF THE Bible CAN SAVE YOU KNOW MATTER WERE YOU ARE SITUATED. READ WHAT Jesus SAYS IN JOHN 14:6 .....Mormonism WILL NOT SAVE YOU...............ONLY THE REAL Jesus AND BELEIVE ME THE Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus IN THE Bible IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM,
The fact is Joseph Smith lied and deceived people . so how on earth can you trust anything he said.

But we should trust you....got it!
and since Noah was a drunk...he had nothing to contribute either......


by the way....you said
"THE FACT IS NO CHURCH NO ORGANIZATION, NO RELIGION WILL SAVE YOU"
Exactly where did you get the notion that LDS church members believe that any CHURCH will save them per se?
and
Where exactly does the LDS contradict John 14:6 ? Personally you should read John 14:11-12

perhaps you have not noticed the actual name of the LDS Church....(spoiler alert: CoJC....)
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
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_jordon3
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Re: What is the Book of Abraham?

Post by _jordon3 »

ok subgeneius,,,question Why did Joseph Smith deceive and lie about translating the Book of Abraham? Also why did Joseph smith Plagerize parts of the Book of Mormon.... he even copied the errors? Final question for now, How can you consider Joseph Smith a prophet when he does these sorts of things. The real God would not tolerate a liar, deceiver and pedophile as a true prophet.......why does the Mormon church???? Screams cult....I am just trying to understand how you can buy into this. Also when push come to shove why does the Mormon church change their doctrine..ie blacks in the preisthood
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