The Question: Are Mormons Christian? A Biblical Approach

[_sr1030]

• First, for this to work, I think there should not be any other Mormon criticisms brought up in this thread, other than the question of whether Mormons are Christian using the text of the Bible as the standard by which this question shall be resolved.
  
• Second, any attempt to discuss other topics as a means of distraction (i.e. Joseph Smith's beliefs, his use of the word 'translation', political issues relating to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Abraham, Polygamy and church history, temples, and etc.) will be ignored by me, and, I would hope by others here who are interested in genuine discussion about this single question.
  
• Third, any signs of copying and pasting large amounts of text from a website without addressing questions and concerns of other participants here will certainly be ignored by me, and, I would hope by others here who are interested in genuine discussion about this single question.
  
• Finally, mocking the sacred beliefs of another faith-group, as well as personal insults toward participants will also be ignored (and reported) by me, and, I would hope by others here who are interested in genuine discussion about this single question.

Why do you want to constrain this topic so much? To show how obviously it is that the LDS Church is not a Christian church would require showing what they teach, from all the publications you restrict the use of here, and compare it with the teachings of the Bible.

sr

[_jordon3]

Please I am not arguing about whether or not Mormons are Christian. What I am trying to present is why Christians do not believe Mormons are Christian so that Mormons can hopefully understand why.

Mostly it comes down to a complete and opposite concept of God....they couldn't be more polar opposite. ie if Mormons are Christian,,,,then is is impossible for Christians to be Christians and vise versa. Hey I realize this is an unusual statement but I believe is gets the point across...

How could polar opposite concepts and beliefs about God be called by the same name?


Does the Bible teach that God the Father used to be a man like you and I, and is an exalted man today? Does the Bible teach that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are three separate Gods? It does not. Also, there are not many Gods, and there is not a mother goddess that the Father has relations with to make spirit babies, as Mormonism teaches. The Bible makes it clear that there is only one God":

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me” (Isaiah 43:10).
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me” (Isaiah 44:6). Isaiah continues in verse 8, ‘”Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none."
Joseph Smith’s teachings clearly contradict what the Bible says. He teaches a different god than the God of the Bible. He teaches multiple gods, when the Bible only teaches that there is one true God.

Christians do NOT believe the above in any way shape or form. In fact these are polar opposite to what Christians believe:

Christians do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, Christians believe he has fabricated a religion and made up his God concepts. There seems to be so much evidence to support this.

I believe the Bigger question is " Is Joseph Smith a true prophet?" Once this is answered ----the question of whether Mormons are Christians goes with out saying.

Again the point of my post is not to say yea or nay to the topic question presented...only to say what more and more Christians are becoming aware of and believing. They do not believe Mormons are Christian.

[_Fence Sitter]

Always seems funny to me that the discussion of who qualifies as a Christian stops at "being Christian". If the nature of God is tied inextricably to who Christ was/is, why stop at denying others are Christian? Why not also deny they are theist?

[_Megacles]

Why do you want to constrain this topic so much? To show how obviously it is that the LDS Church is not a Christian church would require showing what they teach, from all the publications you restrict the use of here, and compare it with the teachings of the Bible.

sr

I am constraining this topic to what the Bible says.

My position is that the Bible does not exclude Latter-day Saints from Christianity, and I welcome discussion that supports or does not support my position.

The problem has been, in other threads, is that some participants have not been able to stay on topic. If we can establish that the Bible does not exclude the LDS church from Christianity, we can move on from there.

Mostly it comes down to a complete and opposite concept of God....they couldn't be more polar opposite.

Using the Bible only, please define for me what concept of God is necessary to be called a Christian. Please also show how the LDS church does not fit into that biblical concept.

[_sr1030]

Why do you want to constrain this topic so much? To show how obviously it is that the LDS Church is not a Christian church would require showing what they teach, from all the publications you restrict the use of here, and compare it with the teachings of the Bible.

sr

I am constraining this topic to what the Bible says.

My position is that the Bible does not exclude Latter-day Saints from Christianity, and I welcome discussion that supports or does not support my position.

The problem has been, in other threads, is that some participants have not been able to stay on topic. If we can establish that the Bible does not exclude the LDS church from Christianity, we can move on from there.

So if I say the Bible teaches something and the LDS teach contrary to this, I could not quote LDS Works to show how this is?

Just want to make sure I understand this.

sr

[_Megacles]

Sr, thank you for participating.

Obviously you can say whatever you want. I cannot control anything, but I appreciate you humoring me just this one time.

So if I say the Bible teaches something and the LDS teach contrary to this, I could not quote LDS Works to show how this is?

If you quote something from the Bible that you believe is an essential or defining attribute of what it means to be Christian, then show how LDS teachings reject it, I consider that productive and welcome it.

However, let us not venture into the fringes of what constitutes LDS doctrine; the Journal of Discourses, or Mormon Doctrine should not be referred to, in my opinion.

[Guest]

Using the Bible only, please define for me what concept of God is necessary to be called a Christian. Please also show how the LDS church does not fit into that biblical concept.

That standard for Christians is expressed in the Nicene-Constantinople creed.


1) I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
2) One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
3) Father (Matthew 6: 9)
4) Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
5) Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
6) and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)
7) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
8) Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
9) begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
10) begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
11) Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
12) true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
13) of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
14) through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
15) Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
16) came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
17) and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
18) and became man. (John 1: 14)
19) Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
20) under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
21) He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
22) and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
23) Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
24) And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
25) He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
26) And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
27) to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
28) His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
29) And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
30) Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
31) the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
32) Who proceeds from the Father and the Son, (John 15: 26)
33) Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
34) Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
35) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
36) holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
37) catholic (Mark 16: 15)
38) and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
39) I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
40) I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
41) And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
42) Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

Here is where Mormonism is in disagreement with the Bible.

2) Mormons believe in the plurality of Gods
4) Plurality of Gods makes it illogical for God (singular) to be almighty.
5) Mormons do not believe God created all things, they believe Gods made from existing matter.
9) Begotten here, for a Christian, has a completely different meaning than Mormon. Whether it's Young's claim of intercourse and a resulting demi-God, or some who believe today that there was some sort of artificial insemination. Both of these ideas are far, far, far, far outside of Christianity.
10) Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a spirit child of the father, which implies Jesus came to exist.
12) On the one hand, Mormon teaching is that Jesus had to gain a body in order to become exalted (just like everyone else), while at the same time, Mormon teaching is that Jesus has always been divine. Two contradictory teachings that maybe someone else can explain. Either way, Mormon teaching is that God BECOMES (eternal progression), while Christian teaching is that God IS ("I AM").
13) Where Mormonism diverges the greatest from Christian teaching is here. Gets to the Mormon teaching of plurality of Gods.
14) Again, pre-existing matter is a problem. ALL things, means ALL things. There is no Biblical basis for something made/created that was not made/created by God, or just happened to exist.
17) Mormonism has a very different understanding of Incarnation, particularly, the "why" of the Incarnation. Which is rooted in a rejection of Original Sin, and the innovation of pre-existence and progression to godhood. These are not Christian doctrines.
18) Again, see #12. For our Salvation, God became Man. God does not become God, and God does not increase in X attributes.
33) Mormon teaching forbids worship of the Son and the Holy Spirit
35-38) "Restoration" denies the Biblical teaching of Church
39) Mormons reject Christian baptism

Where Mormons agree, particularly 19-28, is the point where Mormonism claim to be a Christian religion. The major disagreements are the nature of God and Mormon Christology.

[_sr1030]

Sr, thank you for participating.

Obviously you can say whatever you want. I cannot control anything, but I appreciate you humoring me just this one time.

So if I say the Bible teaches something and the LDS teach contrary to this, I could not quote LDS Works to show how this is?

If you quote something from the Bible that you believe is an essential or defining attribute of what it means to be Christian, then show how LDS teachings reject it, I consider that productive and welcome it.

However, let us not venture into the fringes of what constitutes LDS doctrine; the Journal of Discourses, or Mormon Doctrine should not be referred to, in my opinion.

I will give it a shot, but don't expect me to defend Christianity, though I could, many times I choose not to with LDS.

Christ clearly taught there is one God:

Mark 12:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

The LDS Church have historically taught in more than one God. This being the case, the LDS Church teaches contrary to the teachings of Christ. Hence, not logically a "Christian" Church.

sr

[_jordon3]

Mostly it comes down to a complete and opposite concept of God....they couldn't be more polar opposite.

Hello my friend Megs you asked--- Using the Bible only, please define for me what concept of God is necessary to be called a Christian. Please also show how the LDS church does not fit into that biblical concept.[/quote]


THE CHRISTIAN CONCEPT OF GOD
Christians concept of God is found in the Bible. Known as classical theism, this view of God has long been considered the orthodox theistic position. Though there are numerous divine attributes, sufficient to say that the God of classical theism is at least .

(1) personal and incorporeal (without physical parts) (Gen, 17:11: Exod. 3:14: Jer. 29:11) God is Spirit (John 4:24)
(2) The Creator and Sustainer of everything else that exists. All reality is contingent on God — that is, all reality has come into existence and continues to exist because of Him. Unlike a god who forms the universe out of pre-existent matter, the God of classical theism created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing). Consequently, it is on God alone that everything in the universe depends for its existence (see Acts 17:25; Col. 1:16, 17; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 11:3; 2 Cor. 4:6; Rev. 4:11).
(3) omnipotent (all-powerful) Rev. 19:6, Psalm 62:11, job 26:14. Psalm 79:11, 1 Cor. 6:14, Luke 11:20, 2 Cor. 13;14, Eph. 6:10, Zep 3:17, Matt. 19:26, 2 Cor 6:7, Jer. 10;12.,
(4) omniscient (all-knowing), Job 37:16, Psalm 147:5, 1Samuel 2:3, Isaiah 55:9, Job 28:24, 1 John 3: 19-20; Matt 10: 29-30; Isaiah 46: 9-10; Psalm 139:4, Hebrews 4:13
(5) omnipresent (everywhere present) Jeremiah 23:24, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 127:1-24, Colossians 1:17 ,Matthew 18:20, Isaiah 57:15, Hebrews 4:12
(6) immutable (unchanging) and eternal Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19, Psalm 102:25-27, Psalm 33:11, Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 43:10, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:17, James 1:17
(7) only one God. Isaiah 43:10: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Isaiah 44:6, 8: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
.
For centuries Christians have professed their belief in a God who is God alone (Is. 44:8), self-existent (Is. 43:10; 48:12), transcendent (Num. 23:19; Ps. 50:21), immutable (Ps. 102:27; Is. 46:10; Mal. 3:6), eternal (Ps. 90:2; 93:2), omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Prov. 15:3; Is. 66:1; Jer. 23: 23, 24), and incorporeal (John 4:24; Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17). He is also a God who dwells in the believers (Eph. 3:17; 4:6; Rom. 8:9) and is omnipotent (Job 42:2; Ps. 115:3; Matt. 19:26).

[_jordon3]

Megacles you asked me to show how the LDS does not fit into the biblical concept.
As I said the Mormon concept and the Christian concept of Christianity are so polar "opposites" of each other, to the point absurdity to think they would be both called Christians.

The god of Mormonism is one of many gods.(Journal of Discourses 7:333).

The god of Mormonism is NOT self-existent.(The Seer, pg. 132).

The god of Mormonism is NOT transcendent. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345). (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).(Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21)

The god of Mormonism is NOT immutable.

Whereas God's perfection makes it "never" necessary for Him to change, the God of Mormonism changes both in his physical person and moral attributes. This is demonstrated by the fact that he evolved from a man into a God and that he has changed decrees which are theoretically "unalterable." Examples of this would include the abandonment of polygamy in 1890, the reversal of the ban which withheld the LDS Priesthood from Blacks in 1978, and the changes in the LDS temple ceremony in 1980.
The god of Mormonism is NOT eternally God.(Teachings, pg. 345)

The god of Mormonism is NOT incorporeal.(D&C 130:22).

The god of Mormonism is NOT omnipresent. (Journal of Discourses 6:345)(The Articles of Faith, pg. 39)(Evidences and Reconcilliations, pp. 76-77)

The god of Mormonism cannot dwell in the believer.

According to Joseph Smith, "The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false" (D&C 130:3. Oddly enough, the Book of Mormon teaches the Lord does dwell in the hearts of the righteous. See Alma 34:36).
The god of Mormonism is NOT omnipotent.(The First 2,000 Years, pp. 355-356).

That the LDS God would have to answer to anyone clearly shows he is not omnipotent. Some Mormons insist his omnipotence lies in the fact that he has unlimited power, not all power. This too is inconsistent with Mormon thought since the God of Mormonism has no ability to create ex-nihilo, or out of nothing. The God of Mormonism is limited to only being able to reorganize matter.
The god of Mormonism does NOT forgive completely.

Another major difference between the God of the LDS Church and that of historical Christianity lies in the fact that the God of the Bible forgives "completely". In Isaiah 43:25 we read, "I, even I, am He that bloteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." In Jeremiah 31:34 it says God "will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Hebrews 8:12 states, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." How comforting to know that the God of the Bible wills not to remember the believer's past sins!
The God of Mormonism, however, must keep in remembrance past transgressions for D&C 82:7 warns, "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." There is no possible way that these two beings can be the same.

If people can't comprehend and see how completely different the Mormon god is from the Christian God.....then I am stunned beyond imagination. The nature and character could not be any further from each other. It is absurd that to use the name Christian with this completely polar opposite beliefs.

The Mormon God and Christian God appear to have NOTHING in common in nature and essence.