Mormons are here to stay

[_AmyJo]

Mormons number in population roughly the same as the Jewish population, worldwide.

App. 15 million Mormons, most inactive. And between 12-13 million Jewish people roughly.

Jews make up less than 1% of the world population. Mormonism must be pretty close to that percentile.

Nonetheless, Mormonism is dying off. Whereas Judaism while it may not be "growing" by leaps and bounds, has survived down through the millenias.

Judaism has survived despite all odds.

I don't see Mormonism achieving that kind of immortality. It fancies itself on the same footing as the Jewish kingdom. But the mentality is worlds apart.

Mormonism is dying from within, because it can't sustain itself on the fraud it's existed on since its inception. The more people learn of it, the more will be exiting. It's just a matter of time.

Because it's a fractional cult, its numbers are dwindling.

From 6 members to 15,000,000 members in less than 200 years. That's pretty good growth. Jews have had some 4,000 years and has the same number of members.

The Jews have had a running headstart on the Mormons. But there are some stark differences between the two religions.

Judaism is founded on the Old Testament scribes and prophets who recorded the history of an ancient people, who begat the idea of a monotheistic god to the world, and that was the precursor to Islam, and Christianity.

Half of the Jewish population was wiped out because of the Holocaust. And from pogroms and crusades down through the centuries, or they would be mightier in numbers than they are today.

Judaism is not a dying religion, or a cult. Jews are not leaving Judaism in droves, unlike Mormonism.

Nor do Jews proselytize to increase their numbers. They discourage proselytizing, and wonder why anyone else would want to convert to a religion that is so highly persecuted as they are.

Jews do not seek converts. They don't go into Third World countries to baptize people who will remain marginal Mormons for a lifetime. And they abhor the baptizing of the dead by LDS Inc because it's an abomination to the Jews, and the ultimate insult to their memory - they lived as Jews, died as Jews, and their Jewish souls go to heaven apart from the Mormon wishful thinking that they aren't saved without proxy baptism to the "highest kingdom" a.k.a. Celestial where "only" married Mormons sealed to their spouses will inherit. That's just more tripe and fodder that a cult would teach its members. One characteristic of cults is they teach theirs is the only way to salvation. Joseph's was no different in this respect from a hallmark of a cult.

Aside of that, Judaism is a wellspring of rich intellectualism and life abundantly. They aren't focused on the next world, but this one.

Mormonism is a cult, unlike Judaism. It sprang up from a false prophet who plagiarized and stole outright other people's ideas, and copied from their manuscripts, including the King James Bible he quoted verbatim in his writing of the Book of Mormon. Sermon on the Mount, and the Beatitudes came straight out of his upstate New York Bible that his family kept in their Palmyra farmhouse, and called it revelation. Since when was plagiarizing the Bible "revelation?"

So a fantasy was born, and people of the frontier followed. They didn't know they were being fleeced by a wolf in sheep's clothing.

With the advent of the Internet, and the Millenial generation the church is seeing a decline among its American and European stakes and wards in record numbers.

Most of those who've been "baptized" as in converts are either totally inactive or mostly so today.

The ones who stay inside the American community of Mormons dare not utter their doubts or disbeliefs in church meetings without being brandished an apostate or on the way out.

Judaism encourages questions, and teaches the questions are more important than the answers in their study of Torah, and Talmud, God and the reasons for life.

Jews teach that all roads may lead to heaven, and it is not necessary to be a Jew to be saved. Not everyone will be, however, except for those who are the righteous among the nations, whatever they ascribe to.

Whereas a cult controls the "truth" it feeds to its members. It worships a man instead of God, in the Mormon church that man is none other than Joseph Smith who declared no one else has done more to save the world than he, except for Jesus himself.

A false prophet declaring himself as important as the son of God, is preposterous.

Because the Mormon church was founded by a false prophet based on false teachings, and is a cult that today's youth and parents are learning about its true origins that wasn't available when it was founded to those who followed it then. It is dwindling. The 15m is in decline, as in not growing. Out of that not even 1/3 is nominally active.

Nor have Mormons experienced pogroms or Holocausts unlike the Jews. And in fact, helped and were Nazis themselves during the Holocaust in Germany. The Mormons in Germany, and Salt Lake City went along with the Third Reich in condemning the Jews, and were responsible for war crimes as SS guards and Nazis themselves.

Not a godly religion, if you ask me. A cult like Mormonism cannot sustain itself on a house of cards, in the long haul. It's a religion built on Americana folklore, and mimicked the Bible to a degree, while departing from it even moreso.

There is not a scintilla of archaeological evidence or DNA linking the Book of Mormon to reality. Neither to the Hebrews or the Native American Indians, or their rich legacy. There is, however, plenty of archaeological and DNA evidence linking the Hebrews to theirs.

It's all a fabrication! A cult such as this cannot sustain itself unless its members are truly dumb as oxen. No thinking, rational person can defend it any longer.

That's why its numbers are dwindling and will continue to in my opinion.

I could be wrong, but the Exodus out of Mormonism as opposed toward a dying cult, speaks for itself.

[_Themis]

Mormons number in population roughly the same as the Jewish population, worldwide.

App. 15 million Mormons, most inactive. And between 12-13 million Jewish people roughly.

Jews make up less than 1% of the world population. Mormonism must be pretty close to that percentile.

Nonetheless, Mormonism is dying off. Whereas Judaism while it may not be "growing" by leaps and bounds, has survived down through the millenias.

Judaism has survived despite all odds.

I don't see Mormonism achieving that kind of immortality. It fancies itself on the same footing as the Jewish kingdom. But the mentality is worlds apart.

Mormonism is dying from within, because it can't sustain itself on the fraud it's existed on since its inception. The more people learn of it, the more will be exiting. It's just a matter of time.

Because it's a fractional cult, its numbers are dwindling.

From 6 members to 15,000,000 members in less than 200 years. That's pretty good growth. Jews have had some 4,000 years and has the same number of members.

AmyJo brings up some good points of the differences between the two groups. LDS may have 15 millions names on a list but even you should know they don't have anywhere near 15 million adherents. LDS have been very missionary oriented then most groups in the last 200 years. They have seen ups and downs with converts. Good at the start with some up and down and then a major down after BY announced polygamy officially. It got going well again in the 50' or 60's but has stalled a lot from about the late 80's to today. Especially in the industrialized world.

[_The CCC]

AmyJo brings up some good points of the differences between the two groups. LDS may have 15 millions names on a list but even you should know they don't have anywhere near 15 million adherents. LDS have been very missionary oriented then most groups in the last 200 years. They have seen ups and downs with converts. Good at the start with some up and down and then a major down after BY announced polygamy officially. It got going well again in the 50' or 60's but has stalled a lot from about the late 80's to today. Especially in the industrialized world.

I like differences. Viva La Differ'ence.

The LDS count as members those that have been baptized after 8 years old, and haven't asked to have their names removed from the roles. While Jews don't baptize(Obviously) once your mother is a Jew. You are always a Jew. LDS take the injunction to preach Jesus to all the world quite seriously. I don't see it as their fault others don't. Ups and downs are naturally part of any groups history. I don't see it as having stalled they have been gaining about 1/3 million more members each year pretty consistently for a while now. No one builds more expensive places of worship for a stagnant population. Not even the LDS.

[_Themis]

The LDS count as members those that have been baptized after 8 years old, and haven't asked to have their names removed from the roles.

Actually we don't know if the church counts names removed in their 15 million. Most just assume they don't.

LDS take the injunction to preach Jesus to all the world quite seriously. I don't see it as their fault others don't.

Does anyone? New religions tends to be more focused on converting. JW actually more so then LDS. Regular members tend to be much more active in missionary work. LDS members tend to avoid it much the same as people in other religions. Good advice in relationships to avoid religion and politics.

Ups and downs are naturally part of any groups history. I don't see it as having stalled they have been gaining about 1/3 million more members each year pretty consistently for a while now.

That's what a stall is. As a percentage of coverts per missionary or even as a percentage of members it is going down. Converts in industrialized countries numbers have fallen, so it is the developing world where the church is getting their numbers from. They tend to have even lower retention rates and are converting more people who are less educated and informed about the church. In a religion that has higher birth rates then the general population and a large missionary force, they have only been able to hold their percentage of the population in the US. Something has to negatively effecting the church.

[_The CCC]

The LDS count as members those that have been baptized after 8 years old, and haven't asked to have their names removed from the roles.

Actually we don't know if the church counts names removed in their 15 million. Most just assume they don't.

LDS take the injunction to preach Jesus to all the world quite seriously. I don't see it as their fault others don't.

Does anyone? New religions tends to be more focused on converting. JW actually more so then LDS. Regular members tend to be much more active in missionary work. LDS members tend to avoid it much the same as people in other religions. Good advice in relationships to avoid religion and politics.

Ups and downs are naturally part of any groups history. I don't see it as having stalled they have been gaining about 1/3 million more members each year pretty consistently for a while now.

That's what a stall is. As a percentage of coverts per missionary or even as a percentage of members it is going down. Converts in industrialized countries numbers have fallen, so it is the developing world where the church is getting their numbers from. They tend to have even lower retention rates and are converting more people who are less educated and informed about the church. In a religion that has higher birth rates then the general population and a large missionary force, they have only been able to hold their percentage of the population in the US. Something has to negatively effecting the church.

That is how they do it. No assumptions necessary.

The LDS aren't a new religion. Not particularly old when compared to some, but nearly 200 years isn't new either.

There are currently 80,000 formal missionaries in the field. Up from some 40.000 just few years ago. Every member is to be an informal missionary. Yes the LDS are growing faster in less industrialized countries, but that is just a relative term and growth in industrialized countries is progressing just fine.
No one builds more expensive buildings for a declining/stagnant population, including the LDS. Europe as whole is losing native population, and immigration is temporarily masking the problem.

[_AmyJo]

Mormons number in population roughly the same as the Jewish population, worldwide.

App. 15 million Mormons, most inactive. And between 12-13 million Jewish people roughly.

Jews make up less than 1% of the world population. Mormonism must be pretty close to that percentile.

Then, compare the number of Jewish Nobel laureates and Mormon Nobel laureates. The rate is ~195 vs. 1. (I've used "~" because wikipedia gives only % - 22 or 24 - instead of exact number; and I didn't count them...)
That one Mormon is Paul D. Boyer.

____________________________________________
Then the worldwide known artists... The spectrum is wide.
Now, I list only the conductors of Vienna New Year's Concert :

Daniel Barenboim

Daniel Barenboim (German: [baːrənboim], Hebrew: דניאל ברנבוים; born 15 November 1942) is an Argentine pianist and conductor. Currently, he is general music director of La Scala in Milan, the Berlin State Opera, and the Staatskapelle Berlin; he previously served as Music Director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and the Orchestre de Paris. Barenboim is also known for his work with the West–Eastern Divan Orchestra, a Seville-based orchestra of young Arab and Israeli musicians, and as a resolute critic of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.
...
Daniel Barenboim was born in Buenos Aires, Argentina, to Argentinian Jewish parents, Aida (née Schuster) and Enrique Barenboim.

Mariss Jansons

Mariss Ivars Georgs Jansons (born 14 January 1943) is a Latvian conductor, the son of conductor Arvīds Jansons and the singer Iraida Jansons.
...
Iraida Jansons, who was Jewish, gave birth to her son in hiding in Riga, Latvia, after being smuggled out of the Riga Ghetto, where Iraida's father and brother were murdered by the Nazis.

Josef Krips

In 1938, the Nazi annexation of Austria (or Anschluss) forced Krips to leave the country. (He was raised a Roman Catholic, but would have been excluded from musical activity because his father was born Jewish.)

Lorin Maazel

Maazel was born to Jewish American parents of Russian origin in Neuilly-sur-Seine, France, and brought up in the United States, primarily at his parents' home in the city of Pittsburgh's Oakland neighborhood.
...
Maazel was a Commander of the Légion d'honneur of the French Republic and of the Finnish Order of the Lion. He was decorated with the Bundesverdienstkreuz of the Federal Republic of Germany. On 27 May 2013, he received an honorary membership of the Vienna State Opera and the "Groszes Goldenes Verdienstkreuz" of Austria.

Any worldwide known Mormon - or of Mormon background - musicians around? Nobody? What a pity...

You're right, Ludwig. There is no comparison.

I'm happy to admit one such Nobel Physicist is my third cousin, twice removed. Max Born. Best friends of Einstein, and grandfather to Olivia Newton-John, and her cousin Georgie Born, another famous European rocker, now an Oxford professor. So, I'm cousins to them too. Though we've never met.

Max was Jewish, who converted to Christianity as many German Jews did before the Holocaust, in an effort to assimilate into German society. He married a Jewish-Christian woman, who was a great great granddaughter (however many generations,) from Martin Luther. In 1933 they immigrated to England just as Hitler was ramping up to commit murder and genocide.

Following the war, Max eventually repatriated back to Germany, where he lived out his years in retirement. He won the Nobel in 1953, that was long overdue. One of his colleagues who won it in 1933 would have shared the honors with Max, were it not for his being born German Jewish.

Many of my relatives perished in that Holocaust. After learning of Mormonism's involvement with the Third Reich, and collusion as soldiers in the SS and Nazis, and Mormon bishops up to stake presidents banning Jews from their church houses in Germany. I was appalled. They also used genealogy to help their fellow Nazis smoke out Jews who had converted to Christianity, so they could be rounded up and murdered with all the rest.

The collusion between Mormons and Nazis didn't stop with Germany, however. J. Reuben Clark was an open anti-Semite as First Counselor to David O. McKay. He too, threw the Jews under the bus, and turned his back on them in full support of Hitler's Holocaust.

I was stunned to learn of the Mormon connection to Nazism. Overwhelmed in fact. Nothing ordained by God would have colluded so succinctly with Hitler and his death camps as the Mormon church did during that time.

Just another reason that confirms why the LDS church is a fraud.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Mo ... &q&f=false

[_Themis]

That is how they do it. No assumptions necessary.

CFR that they don't count in their total number those who have had their names removed. It is an assumption even if correct.

The LDS aren't a new religion. Not particularly old when compared to some, but nearly 200 years isn't new either.

New compared to the major religions of the world.

There are currently 80,000 formal missionaries in the field. Up from some 40.000 just few years ago.

That is an exaggeration. The church had a lot more then 40,000 a few years ago. The increase is due to the age reduction of men and women. This will cause a peak and then ease off with a higher total number due to a lot more women serving now that they can serve at 19 instead of 21. This may result of a very small decrease in birth rates.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865606271/LDS-missionary-numbers-to-peak-at-88000-more-to-use-and-pay-for-digital-devices.html?pg=all

What we see is more missionaries without an increase in coverts. This has been a trend since about the 80,s.

Every member is to be an informal missionary.

Yes and they don't do a good job. This has more to due to with culture and psychology then anything.

Yes the LDS are growing faster in less industrialized countries, but that is just a relative term and growth in industrialized countries is progressing just fine.

Growth is doing poorly in the industrialized world. The US is doing the best yet with higher birth rates and a massive missionary force they cannot increase the percentage of the population. I suspect the church may focus more on the developing world to create an increase in convert numbers. They tend to be less educated and ignorant of the church.

No one builds more expensive buildings for a declining/stagnant population, including the LDS. Europe as whole is losing native population, and immigration is temporarily masking the problem.

That doesn't change that they are losing as a percentage of the population and in some areas as a total number. Don't feel bad. Some members see this as the signs of the times.

[_AmyJo]

I've also noticed among my TBM nieces and nephews that after they're back from their missions, they're leaving the church.

Or otherwise going inactive, if not outright resigning.

So there again, those numbers are dwindling, and will continue to. Including among the missionary population.

Many returned missionaries are leaving LDS Corp besides my nephews and nieces, upon their return or soon after their missions have ended.

Being out in the real world away from their families and Mormon ties, they're exposed to other ideas and religious views, and people pointing out the historical discrepancies they weren't taught growing up as LDS.

It's a culture shock many experience for the first time. That and learning about Joseph Smith's early beginnings, and the shenanigans that went on with his womanizing and philandering, and other criminal activities (yes, bigamy and polygamy were not the law of the land,) his nefarious ways caught up with him. There isn't only one thing that points to the fraud, there's overwhelming evidence indicating it was all a sham from the inception.

[_moksha]

I might need to rethink my original premise. I read the following article and thought about the Lemmings march to the sea. Even for those more rational Lemmings, their sheer weight on the cliff may cause the cliff to crumble thus taking them all.

Natural or adopted children living in a same-sex household will only be allowed to be baptized once they are 18, disavow the practice of same-sex cohabitation or marriage, and stop living within the household, according to the policy. Such baptism would still require the approval of the church's governing First Presidency.

http://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-to-exclude-children-of-same-sex-couples-from-membership

[_SteelHead]

Yep, with this type of leadership they may self destruct yet.