Always Changing wrote:Yup. However, the concept of theosis is acceptable within traditional Catholicism. The definition of Catholic mysticism places a line between that, and Gnosticism. And, as you note, some Catholics have crossed that line, and gone too far out. Just as Mormonism is too far out.
Far out, man.....
If we're making value judgements about this, for me the objectionable thing about Gnosticism is its elitism. You find some very off-putting ideas in Gnostic (and Hermetic) texts about the contrast between the spiritual elite and the swinish multitude. Mainstream Christianity has its faults, but it is an exoteric religion which anyone can join and which freely and openly publicises what it is about.
Good perception. In addition,
the idea that it was possible for humans (or at least a chosen few) to return to communion with this being......Christianity, which was committed to the idea that Jesus came in the flesh, that consuming the physical substances of bread and wine is a sacred rite, and so on.
In Catholicism, theosis is not possible without Eucharist. Becoming God's, rather than gods.
Problems with auto-correct: In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
This is digressing a bit, but here's a novel argument for the non-historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I said above that Gnosticism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity because the latter is an incarnational religion. But it's not just that. It's been noted that Christianity bears the marks of being a Mediterranean religion: across all traditional denominations, sacred rites are celebrated with bread, wine and oil, the so-called "Mediterranean triad" of basic foodstuffs. This fairly specific link to the Mediterranean doesn't fit very well with Nephite Christianity.
Johannes wrote:This is digressing a bit, but here's a novel argument for the non-historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I said above that Gnosticism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity because the latter is an incarnational religion. But it's not just that. It's been noted that Christianity bears the marks of being a Mediterranean religion: across all traditional denominations, sacred rites are celebrated with bread, wine and oil, the so-called "Mediterranean triad" of basic foodstuffs. This fairly specific link to the Mediterranean doesn't fit very well with Nephite Christianity.
That's actually a pretty powerful argument. What are the available dietary analogues in preColumbian MesoAmerica or New England?
Johannes wrote:This is digressing a bit, but here's a novel argument for the non-historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I said above that Gnosticism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity because the latter is an incarnational religion. But it's not just that. It's been noted that Christianity bears the marks of being a Mediterranean religion: across all traditional denominations, sacred rites are celebrated with bread, wine and oil, the so-called "Mediterranean triad" of basic foodstuffs. This fairly specific link to the Mediterranean doesn't fit very well with Nephite Christianity.
That's actually a pretty powerful argument. What are the available dietary analogues in preColumbian MesoAmerica or New England?
Problems with auto-correct: In Helaman 6:39, we see the Badmintons, so similar to Skousenite Mormons, taking over the government and abusing the rights of many.
I propose corn tortillas and Tequila for the Sacrament. That's why God gave them to the Nephites. Joseph must have read it wrong. A translation error. Pretty sure they didn't know much about Tequila where he came frorm.
Johannes wrote:I don't want to sound as if I'm anti-Masonic, but I'd respond to this by saying that watching football and hanging out in bars are both free-standing activities than anyone can do, alone or in a group, for the sake of the activity itself. But no-one conducts Masonic rituals alone, for their own sake, because the rituals have no "sake" beyond bringing men together and getting them to interact. I've heard Masons say as much themselves. Those who immerse themselves in the esoteric history behind the rituals are a minority, and Masons freely admit that.
Hmmm. The thing about Masonic ritual is that it has traditionally been shrouded in secrecy. So, whatever public comments Masons may make regarding the purpose of their ritual I would take with a grain of salt. What I find telling about Masonic myth is that it is parabiblical legend about things like Solomon's temple, the ever-intriguing Enoch, etc. With all of the negative press that Masonry gets from anti-cult bigots and conspiracy theorists, they quite predictably say, "hey, this is just about bringing men together." Historically, Masonry was about bridging theological divides to bring people together in a manner in keeping with the utopian and republican ideals of the period in which it emerged. All of that was not just anodyne camaraderie. It was pretty revolutionary and idealistic. Today it is anodyne, but then we take for granted, sometimes to our own detriment, all of the things Masonry was aiming to bring about.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Johannes wrote:This is digressing a bit, but here's a novel argument for the non-historicity of the Book of Mormon.
I said above that Gnosticism is incompatible with orthodox Christianity because the latter is an incarnational religion. But it's not just that. It's been noted that Christianity bears the marks of being a Mediterranean religion: across all traditional denominations, sacred rites are celebrated with bread, wine and oil, the so-called "Mediterranean triad" of basic foodstuffs. This fairly specific link to the Mediterranean doesn't fit very well with Nephite Christianity.
I feel a tapir coming on.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Kishkumen wrote:Hmmm. The thing about Masonic ritual is that it has traditionally been shrouded in secrecy. So, whatever public comments Masons may make regarding the purpose of their ritual I would take with a grain of salt. What I find telling about Masonic myth is that it is parabiblical legend about things like Solomon's temple, the ever-intriguing Enoch, etc. With all of the negative press that Masonry gets from anti-cult bigots and conspiracy theorists, they quite predictably say, "hey, this is just about bringing men together." Historically, Masonry was about bridging theological divides to bring people together in a manner in keeping with the utopian and republican ideals of the period in which it emerged. All of that was not just anodyne camaraderie. It was pretty revolutionary and idealistic. Today it is anodyne, but then we take for granted, sometimes to our own detriment, all of the things Masonry was aiming to bring about.
Yes and no. I'll concede the point about Masonry historically being a social leveller, and that this made it subversive. I'm less convinced about the modern-day version. You could rename the pillars of the temple "Bert" and "Ernie" and I don't think you'd detract much from the Masonic experience.
This is just my reductive etic point of view, of course.... I'm not against the Masons, or any other source of fraternity and philanthropy. I just don't believe that the esoteric content is central to the lived experience of most Masons I've known.
Speaking of tequila and tapirs, I believe that top scholars at the Interpreter Foundation have proven quite convincingly that "wine" in Moroni 5 is an imperfect Anglicised translation of an ancient Nephite term for a mixture of tequila, triple sec and lime juice.
Johannes wrote:Speaking of tequila and tapirs, I believe that top scholars at the Interpreter Foundation have proven quite convincingly that "wine" in Moroni 5 is an imperfect Anglicised translation of an ancient Nephite term for a mixture of tequila, triple sec and lime juice.
If we can swallow "Adieu" we can certainly swallow tequila.
