The Lattice

[Valo]

If you discover in life
Anything better than justice
Self-control
Truth & courage
In this life
Anything better
Than a mind
Satisfied
That it succeeded
In enabling
You to act rationally
And satisfied to accept
What's beyond its control
If you discover in life
Anything better than justice
Don't let go
If you find anything better than that
Embrace it without reservations
Enjoy it to the full
But if nothing higher is revealed
Than the very divinity that's within you
The thing that subjected itself
To all your appetites
Examines all your thoughts
As Socrates used to say
Detached itself from sense
And submitted to the gods
And cares for all mankind
And if you find
There's nothing
Of greater value than this
Give room for nothing else
For anything that might lead you astray
Might tempt you off the path
And leave you unable
To devote yourself completely
To achieving
The honor
The goodness
That is uniquely yours
It would be wrong
Wrong for anything
To stand in the way
The applause of the crowd
Be it power
Be it pleasure
All might seem
To be compatible
With it
For a while
But suddenly
They control us
And sweep us away
If you discover in life
Anything better than justice
Self-control
Truth & courage
In this life
Anything better
Than a mind
Satisfied
That it succeeded
In enabling
You to act rationally
And satisfied to accept
What's beyond its control
If you discover in life
Anything better than justice
Don't let go
So I say
Simply
Of your own free will
Pick the better
And stick to it
And what’s best is for the better
For that's what benefits me
As a rational being
As a rational being
But as an animal?
Just say so
And stand your ground
Stand your ground
Without making a show
Just make sure
You make a choice
That won't betray you

Anything Better Than Justice

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Umm, okay.

[Valo]

Well, here's the thing
Science has only proven maybe, I think
Four things in the history of science
So that the, the
That's why there's a theory of evolution even though
Evolution is, I think certain, it certainly happened
I think evolution certainly happened
Now I could say to you if I wanted to
That it is a theory because they haven't proven it
But I I believe it
When I hear Steven Hawkins say, ''Therе is no God''
I go, what kind of scientist is that?
I mean, I heard him say that
I hеard him say, ''There is no God'' It's a fairytale
That's not a scientist to me
That's the preeminent physicist in the entire world
Is saying something
Out of obvious prejudice
I did not hear the whole quote
But I was kind of shocked
That science says like, we've given up
I don't know when scientists started saying things were
[Chorus]
Unknowable
That's a new one on me
Unknowable
That's a new one on me
Unknowable
That's a new one on me
Because that's not a scientific term
As far as I know
Unknowable?

Maybe they could, I don't think scientists could possibly
Use that term unknowable
Because it infers that they can see into the future
I don't have the powers of a scientist
I certainly couldn't prove the existence of the planet Mercury
If that's even a planet anymore, I can't prove anything
I'm just taking their word for it
No, I'm all for science
Because I want them to make things
That'll make me live longer and stuff, you know
But I would really like
I would like eternal life
I would like some proof one way or the other
That God doesn't exist, I don't care what you prove
Like at least prove one of them
I don't know when scientists started saying things were unknowable

[Valo]

All really humane people admit that they're rascals
That's you see on the side of the not respectable, the selfish
But so also all humane people should admit that they're jokers, that they are playing games and playing tricks
That I am doing it on you, I am most ready to admit this
I hoaxed you all into coming here to tell you what? [Laugh]
It was a trap, you see?
But, I'm gonna make it an entertaining trap
So, that you won't feel so badly about it
Now, this is philosophy, and I think philosophy is like music
You go to a concert and you listen to somebody play Bach, or Mozart, or Beethoven, and what's that all about?
(What‘s all that about?)
What's the point of that? You know it isn't about anything, except...

[Chorus]
“dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee, dee-dee diddly-dee”
“dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee, dee-dee diddly-dee”
You know, that's what it's about
“dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee, dee-dee diddly-dee”
“dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee, dee-dee diddly-dee”
You know, that's what it's about

And so in the same way
As I conceive my work as a philosopher
I'm simply pointing out that existence is the same kind of a thing as a Bach invention
It's going this way, and that way, and hills, and water is going “tch-tch-tch-tch-tch-tch-tch”, all out there
And the fish are going around in it, and breeding, and the ducks are (swimming in the water)
And that's the same thing as, “dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee, dee-dee diddly-dee”
See? So, if you can admit that, that that's what it's all about, you have a little problem
Because there's not only the threat that it really might be serious and that you shouldn't be laughing about it
Now, there's also a kind of opposite, then are you saying it's merely just fiddling around?
I mean, are you saying it's only a game? Is that all there is to it? And what do you think?
You see this again is a question, that everybody has to think things through, what did you want?
Didn't you want a game? Did you want it to be serious in the end?
I mean think about the question, what kind of a thing would you like God to be?
What would you like to do for eternity?
Really?

[Valo]

The Science Delusion

[Moksha]

What if God designed an adventure for us but not just for fun, even though it would have its thrills, it was designed to allow us worms to become like God in our capacity to have discipline and power which God obtained through respect and love and true discipline, not being overwhelmed by and overcoming the greed for power?

That way we could be Gods in Embryo as long we followed the plan and were the first ones to get Yahtzee.

[Valo]

What if God designed an adventure for us but not just for fun, even though it would have its thrills, it was designed to allow us worms to become like God in our capacity to have discipline and power which God obtained through respect and love and true discipline, not being overwhelmed by and overcoming the greed for power?

That way we could be Gods in Embryo as long we followed the plan and were the first ones to get Yahtzee.

Not God's in embroy exactly. Worms that can be eagles. No need to learn Yahtzee either. But controlling your appetite is a good idea if you want to be an eagle. You can remain a worm. No harm, no foul. But worms don't have arms, legs, eyes, ears, nose, and definitely not wings!

[Gadianton]

Why would any being not already part of a natural world "need to learn" suffering?

If you are already a being in the natural world where survival chances are increased by learning to deal with pain, then sure, it makes sense. But what you're proposing makes about as much sense as saying that we must fill our chloroplasts as we bask in the sunlight. Sure, if we're plants, but if we're not plants then there's no particular need to fulfill the functional roles of plant organelles.

If we were beings at one time other than mortal humans, then there was no survival advantage to suffering or discipline or any of that nonsense. We had no relation at all to those concepts as we had no body parts that feel stress or fatigue that put us in danger of dying. To transform us into new entities that feel stress and fatigue -- assuming that's even a conceivable transformation, which I doubt -- then there would be no difference if instead we were transformed into chlorophyll producers. Both: beings that produce chlorophyll and beings that feel pain and fatigue, are equally out of the bounds of concern of immortal non-physical entities (assuming the word 'concern' transfers between all three). It's totally arbitrary as to submit to one foreign set of functional roles rather than another, since neither have anything to do with you.

Now, you may be thinking that we weren't really being serious by saying "we" didn't feel pain and suffering as spirits; after all Satan will suffer plenty in hell and voting for Jesus' plan already required wisdom and discipline. Not to mention those that followed Satan were overwhelmed by power and greed. So, hmm, really, coming to earth for six hours to die dengue fever is rather pointless compared to the more intricate challenges we already had in the spirit world. At best you could say a handful of people got to experience something akin to a video game that has familiar but slightly different rules.

So, there's a fork here, either mortal life is just an extension of what we already experienced and therefore is pointless, or it is a totally new reality, and therefore is pointless to our prior concerns, and no more a priori needful than transforming into other new realities totally different from human realities, such as producers of chlorophyll.

[Valo]

Why would any being not already part of a natural world "need to learn" suffering?

If you are already a being in the natural world where survival chances are increased by learning to deal with pain, then sure, it makes sense. But what you're proposing makes about as much sense as saying that we must fill our chloroplasts as we bask in the sunlight. Sure, if we're plants, but if we're not plants then there's no particular need to fulfill the functional roles of plant organelles.

If we were beings at one time other than mortal humans, then there was no survival advantage to suffering or discipline or any of that nonsense. We had no relation at all to those concepts as we had no body parts that feel stress or fatigue that put us in danger of dying. To transform us into new entities that feel stress and fatigue -- assuming that's even a conceivable transformation, which I doubt -- then there would be no difference if instead we were transformed into chlorophyll producers. Both: beings that produce chlorophyll and beings that feel pain and fatigue, are equally out of the bounds of concern of immortal non-physical entities (assuming the word 'concern' transfers between all three). It's totally arbitrary as to submit to one foreign set of functional roles rather than another, since neither have anything to do with you.

Now, you may be thinking that we weren't really being serious by saying "we" didn't feel pain and suffering as spirits; after all Satan will suffer plenty in hell and voting for Jesus' plan already required wisdom and discipline. Not to mention those that followed Satan were overwhelmed by power and greed. so, hmm, really, coming to earth for six hours to die dengue fever is rather pointless compared to the more intricate challenges we already had in the spirit world. At best you could say a handful of people got to experience something akin to a video game that has familiar but slightly different rules.

So, there's a fork here, either mortal life is just an extension of what we already experienced and therefore is pointless, or it is a totally new reality, and therefore is pointless to our prior concerns, and no more a priori needful than transforming into other new realities totally different from human realities, such as producers of chlorophyll.

Funny how you come in and take over a thread by posting your own topic, posing your own question(s), then answering it and pretending you're responding to the OP.

[bill4long]

What if God designed an adventure for us but not just for fun, even though it would have its thrills, it was designed to allow us worms to become like God in our capacity to have discipline and power which God obtained through respect and love and true discipline, not being overwhelmed by and overcoming the greed for power?

This game, this adventure, this goal, requires unknowns, amnesia, forgetfulness, weakness, and an evil force contrary to God's will. How else can one learn except through suffering through an experience?

This is a controlled environment. We will become worms again or ravens/eagles. But we will receive exactly what we deserve and desire, in the end. We can be worms for ever. It is a choice and it is where we came from. Or we can escape that realm and become more than just worms.

You're on to us.