Did we have a pre-premortal existence?

[_Albion]

Apology accepted. I know how easy it is to type your first thoughts in reaction to a post and then wish you had thought it through a little better.

[_madeleine]

Hello Franktalk,

I understood your point. I see no need to read into the narrative what you are reading into it.

As a Catholic, I am not sola scriptura. :-) But neither do I believe that every speculation under the sun is probable.

Both Jews and Catholics have Sacred Tradition, that is, a belief that what God has revealed is found in written scripture, and in the faith that is handed on. Oral tradition being a part of Tradition, but not its entirety. Liturgy is also a major part of the faith handed on. The Feast of the Passover is one such liturgy. Both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are inspired of the Holy Spirit.

Hope that helps clarify my position and why I pointed out the Sacred Traditions of the Jewish Passover feast, which Jesus, as a devout Jew, would have participated in.

You will be held to your beliefs just as I am. Our righteousness is counted based on what we believe not what is ultimately true. Many have a hard time with this.

I tend to believe that most of the oral tradition is not inspired. That does not mean I disrespect it. Just the opposite. Unless an oral tradition tries to turn over a witnessed truth I embrace tradition. Christ clearly pointed out how the Pharisees added to the teachings of Moses in error. But He clearly said to many do as they teach not as they do.

As for the sacrament I see it in two sections. One in which Christ as God performed the miracle of the atonement as represented by His blood and His flesh. This He could do and no other. The act of offering bread and wine/water as representative of His act we can do. There is no miracle of itself in the sacrament. You may feel differently and that is fine with me. We are to remember the miracle.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The act is for remembrance of His act. We are to focus on His act. The breaking of the bread and the drinking of the wine is not a miracle. We pray that in eating the bread and drinking the wine we receive His miracle from the cross. We do not bring the cross to the cup or to the bread. The bread and wine are Holy only in the remembrance. To make the bread or wine more than bread or wine makes it some kind of idol or graven image. This I will not do.

Let me ask you. At the supper of the Lamb will there be blood in the cup or wine? I think wine.

Then you cannot view the Bible as inspired, as most of it comes from a Sacred Tradition first, before being written down.

I believe Jesus when He said, "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you".

He was not being symbolic. Catholic teaching, east and west, is Jesus is Present, body, blood, soul and divinity. This is not a symbol. Just as if I ask you if you drive a car, and you tell me all about the car you drive, you aren't telling me about a symbol of your car. You are telling me about your car.

At the supper of the Lamb, which I participate in at every Mass, there is the Blood of the Lamb in the Cup.


The Real Presence of Jesus is also found in His Word...the four Gospels, and in His Church, which He established and has never failed.

[_Tobin]

At the supper of the Lamb, which I participate in at every Mass, there is the Blood of the Lamb in the Cup.

Nothing like a big ole cup of blood to perk up your Sabbath.

[_madeleine]

At the supper of the Lamb, which I participate in at every Mass, there is the Blood of the Lamb in the Cup.

Nothing like a big ole cup of blood to perk up your Sabbath.

Indeed, we are what we eat. ;)

But, everyone is drinking out of shared cups...just a small sip for everyone.

[_madeleine]

I'll stop messing with you.

The wine in the cup is changed to blood, but still looks, tastes and smells like wine. It is a matter of faith.

[_Tobin]

I'll stop messing with you.

The wine in the cup is changed to blood, but still looks, tastes and smells like wine. It is a matter of faith.

Oh, I know. I've attended several masses. Really like them especially on Christmas and Easter - big Cathedral, lots of music and kneeling, and wine and cookies after. What's not to like?

[_madeleine]

I'll stop messing with you.

The wine in the cup is changed to blood, but still looks, tastes and smells like wine. It is a matter of faith.

Oh, I know. I've attended several masses. Really like them especially on Christmas and Easter - big Cathedral, lots of music and kneeling, and wine and cookies after. What's not to like?

So you're a C&E Catholic.

Some parishes have more music than others, but we're all doing the "Catholic calisthenics".

[_gdemetz]

One problem with the Catholic church is that they don't know the difference between a literal and a figurative statement, which led to their ridiculous man made conclusion that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all of the "same substance"! They forgot to read the part where Christ stated that he would pray for His apostles that they all may be one, just as He and His father were one, so according to Catholic thinking, that should be fifteen in one! The same problem happened again when they started thinking (and that is always a problem for them!) about the sacrament! Apparently, Christ must have been tremendously huge and must have had a lot of blood to last all of these years!!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine....."

Thank heaven for the "restitution of all things"!!!

[_LittleNipper]

One problem with the Catholic church is that they don't know the difference between a literal and a figurative statement, which led to their ridiculous man made conclusion that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all of the "same substance"! They forgot to read the part where Christ stated that he would pray for His apostles that they all may be one, just as He and His father were one, so according to Catholic thinking, that should be fifteen in one! The same problem happened again when they started thinking (and that is always a problem for them!) about the sacrament! Apparently, Christ must have been tremendously huge and must have had a lot of blood to last all of these years!!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine....."

Thank heaven for the "restitution of all things"!!!

No, the 15 apostles would be one in the CHURCH. God the Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings but one in the Godhead. Another way to say it is that GOD is made up of three united persons in one essence called GOD. An egg has a shell, the white, and a yoke. Together they are "egg" and separately they are "egg."

[_madeleine]

One problem with the Catholic church is that they don't know the difference between a literal and a figurative statement, which led to their ridiculous man made conclusion that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all of the "same substance"! They forgot to read the part where Christ stated that he would pray for His apostles that they all may be one, just as He and His father were one, so according to Catholic thinking, that should be fifteen in one! The same problem happened again when they started thinking (and that is always a problem for them!) about the sacrament! Apparently, Christ must have been tremendously huge and must have had a lot of blood to last all of these years!!

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine....."

Thank heaven for the "restitution of all things"!!!

gdemetz, that's a rather random mishmash of subjects you have going there. Briefly, since we've strayed wayyyy of topic.

- Catholic teaching distinguishes, quite clearly, the difference between Creator and created. We are made one with God, in and through Jesus Christ, but we do not become God.

- Regarding the Sacrifice at Mass, it is a re-presentation, meaning, the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ happened once, and is made Present. Which gets into the understanding of God as omnipresent, and also as the Creator of ALL things, including time. There are many good Catholic resources on this belief online, easily found.

- Jesus Christ is the restitution of all things.