gdemetz wrote:To me, it looks like it's only a draft since who would use a document with scratched out words as a final document?!? Although, the signature has a very good resemblance to a receipt that Jacob Whitmer singned in 1856.
I believe it was in Oliver's handwriting.
Anyhyow, it does nothing to change the fact that the witnesses over the years testified to their signing a document concerning the truthfullness of the plates!!!
Then it shouldn't be a problem showing those statements from them stating they signed a document. I kinda wonder why you wouldn't show this instead of referencing some person who wasn't there and you have yet to say who it was, when he made the statement, and where he got his information. Funny how you don't provide sources that would be able to provide better light on the issue.
Themis, you may be right. That draft may have been written by Oliver. Anyhow, I have never claimed to know where an original document of the eight witnesses is, nor has it been a matter of great concern to me since they all have testified throughout their lives to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon plates.
gdemetz wrote:Themis, you may be right. That draft may have been written by Oliver. Anyhow, I have never claimed to know where an original document of the eight witnesses is, nor has it been a matter of great concern to me since they all have testified throughout their lives to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon plates.
But have not testified throughout their lives that the Church Joseph developed on the back of the Book of Mormon was true. In fact, how many either left the Church or were excommunicated because they were against Joseph's version of the Church? Why was the witness statement changed and where are the witnesses signed consent firms agreeing to the change, with the original perhaps?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
gdemetz wrote:Themis, you may be right. That draft may have been written by Oliver. Anyhow, I have never claimed to know where an original document of the eight witnesses is, nor has it been a matter of great concern to me since they all have testified throughout their lives to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon plates.
But it is a concern for you, otherwise you wouldn't have gotten so worked up over it. Obviously a signed document has much more meaning then an unsigned one. The issue really revolves around what exactly occurred at these events. An unsigned document doesn't help since we are even less sure what they would have agreed to about the statements. If we read other statements made by these 11 and others around them it becomes less clear what actually took place.
Themis, it seems to bring up more questions to you, not to me. I'm sure that if someone came up to you and told you many offensive things, and there were eleven witnesses of that which all either testified in court or submitted affidavits of that, that it would be an iron clad case! However, I guess there would always be the anti who might say; "Ii'm not sure if I believe that really happened. How come they all didn't testify." Or, "I am suspicious of that affidavit. I heard that the original was lost, and the police only had a copy of it, and the judge accepted that copy!" Or, some other such nonsense when there was overwhelming testimony!
gdemetz wrote:Themis, it seems to bring up more questions to you, not to me. I'm sure that if someone came up to you and told you many offensive things, and there were eleven witnesses of that which all either testified in court or submitted affidavits of that, that it would be an iron clad case! However, I guess there would always be the anti who might say; "Ii'm not sure if I believe that really happened. How come they all didn't testify." Or, "I am suspicious of that affidavit. I heard that the original was lost, and the police only had a copy of it, and the judge accepted that copy!" Or, some other such nonsense when there was overwhelming testimony!
Can you show me the affadavit's that they themselves signed? Can you show me the court transcripts?
Thought not.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
gdemetz wrote:Themis, it seems to bring up more questions to you, not to me.
I would suggest your biggest problem is a very closed mind. Even if you knew more about all the statements involving the 11 it wouldn't help much.
I'm sure that if someone came up to you and told you many offensive things, and there were eleven witnesses of that which all either testified in court or submitted affidavits of that, that it would be an iron clad case! However, I guess there would always be the anti who might say; "Ii'm not sure if I believe that really happened. How come they all didn't testify." Or, "I am suspicious of that affidavit. I heard that the original was lost, and the police only had a copy of it, and the judge accepted that copy!" Or, some other such nonsense when there was overwhelming testimony!
If we had a signed copy of the statements in the Book of Mormon I would assign more wight to the accounts. We don't so I am right to assign less regardless of how much you want to bather on about how we wouldn't believe anyway. Darth had a good thread on the witness statement and what they mean and don't mean if we assume the statement of the 8 is an accurate reflection of what happened.
Now if they had each wrote out in their own words what happened and when and made affidavits to it then that would be about as good as we can get. Certainly much better then what we have which is not all in agreement. The question is would it provide more or less credibility Joseph had ancient plates. I have to wonder considering it wasn't done when that would have been the obvious thing to do if the events transpired as the church wants to present.