Adding to the Bible?

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_Drifting
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _Drifting »

gdemetz wrote:Good post Jo! I liked the part about murdering those who did not agree with them. I think it is a safe assumption they they definitely did not have the Holy Spirit then. Pope John did finally apologize for that though. However, now there seems to be another type problem plaguing that old church. It's all the pedophiles. You see what the false doctrine of celibacy can lead to?


So were those Mormon scout masters etc celibate?
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_gdemetz
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _gdemetz »

Drifting, if they did wrong it was probably not due to that. Even David committed adultery and murder despite having many wives, but I think you know that already.
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

Drifting wrote:What is epistemically reliable?


Since I've been basically adopting a by-the-books classical Indian Buddhist stance, and to my own surprise the terminology has been working pretty well, I'll continue the trend in my answer: what grants a cognition epistemic instrumentality (prāmāṇya) is that cognition's "telic efficacy" (arthakriyā) or ability to perform a function. For example, a cognition of wetness where there is water is epistemically instrumental (a more literal translation than "epistemically reliable," although the latter is perhaps closer in terms of the implied meaning) for the purpose of slaking one's thirst. However, a cognition of wetness where there is only a mirage is not epistemically instrumental or reliable for the purpose of accomplishing that goal/performing that function.

How does the master know the difference?


Good question. It might help to back up a bit and distinguish between two senses of "telic efficacy." There is the ability to perform a function in terms of ordinary, mundane life, and then there is the ability to perform the function of achieving liberation from suffering. In general, cognitions that are epistemically reliable for achieving liberation are also reliable in terms of mundane life, but the reverse does not (generally) hold.

So how does the master know the difference? Since I'm not a qualified master I'm not really able to say. But in terms of a theoretical understanding, the point is that masters have achieved a degree of insight or wisdom such that they are able, through questioning and investigating their disciples' experiences, to ascertain whether their disciples' experiences are reliable or not for the purpose of achieving liberation.

That is why, when I have spoken with the Tibetan and Christian masters whom I respect the most, they have invariably downplayed the importance of audiovisual spiritual experiences, "miracles" and the like. I have only ever heard it said that these should be ignored and downplayed as far as possible, since a) there is at a certain level really no way to tell whether or not the experience is genuine and b) more importantly, these experiences are not necessary to attain any sort of spiritual progress, and do not necessarily indicate any sort of spiritual progress.

My problem is usually centered around when claims are made that are not supported by other perceptions that I would say are more reliable in every day life, and which we all depend on in a major way.


Yes, of course. I agree, which is why I made the distinction above. There is a common saying in Tibetan Buddhism: if your Dharma practice isn't improving your day-to-day life, you're doing something wrong.
_subgenius
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _subgenius »

Themis wrote:
subgenius wrote:maybe, but maybe not...i will concede that what we "sense" goes through the brain...but
i contend, in opposition to your premise, that car and driver are not the same thing and can operate exclusive of each other.


Maybe you could expalin that a little more. Are you saying the brain/mind is made both the car and driver?

yes, i have a dictionary...but you have yet to define to "what end"...in other words "more consistently" for what?
as i requested above...you have yet to define by what measure.


If I compare say sight to spiritual claims of knowledge we see almost universal agreement on one and not the other. Sight is very consistent.

I am saying that the "brain" is not the end/beginning it is simply a vehicle. Think of the brain as the car...the driver as the soul.

there is no reason to conclude that the brain is the ultimate of our existence, in fact if one considers the ability to choose otherwise as "real" then there is no other logical conclusion than a supernatural aspect to our "selves". To claim otherwise is both unreasonable and illogical.
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_gdemetz
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _gdemetz »

And, the intelligence drives the spirit.
_Themis
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _Themis »

subgenius wrote:
I am saying that the "brain" is not the end/beginning it is simply a vehicle. Think of the brain as the car...the driver as the soul.

there is no reason to conclude that the brain is the ultimate of our existence, in fact if one considers the ability to choose otherwise as "real" then there is no other logical conclusion than a supernatural aspect to our "selves". To claim otherwise is both unreasonable and illogical.


I am not sure how this makes sense. It seems more an attempt to get internal spiritual experiences around the brain or mind. LDS define soul as the physical body and spiritual body together. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mind
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_gdemetz
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _gdemetz »

Themis, you might try reading those scriptures and praying for understanding about that.
_Themis
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _Themis »

gdemetz wrote:Themis, you might try reading those scriptures and praying for understanding about that.


What scriptures and how specifically do you think they apply to the post you think you were referring to. I assume it was the one just before your post.
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_gdemetz
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _gdemetz »

Try Moroni's challenge (Moroni 10:4-5).
_Samantabhadra
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Re: Adding to the Bible?

Post by _Samantabhadra »

gdemetz wrote:Try Moroni's challenge (Moroni 10:4-5).


I feel like that epistemological rabbit hole deserves its own thread.
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