Book of Mormon a Stolen Novel?

[_Themis]

And yet he was such an amazing writer there are no drafts, no copies, not one shred of manuscript to prove it ever existed. What did he do? Use a laptop computer to write it I suppose.

The one manuscript we do have was not found till much later in Hawaii. A copy of it was sent to his daughter. She wrote back that it was not manuscript found story but Conneaut creek.

Sure I do. I've seen God, God spoke, and the scriptures are true. Read the Moroni's promise sometime. If you want to know, do what he says. If not, just sit around sucking your thumb. I don't care.

The point for the umpteenth time is that you have no experience seeking God and him sowing up. You therefore have no experience to back up what you tell others. Think about what the missionaries say to investigators. Ask God and he will tell you through the HG. They might ask how they know, and they will say because they asked and God and he told them through the HG.

Again, you have brought up no problems. The only thing you've ever pointed out is that Joseph Smith was a human being and made bad assumptions. Congrats. Thank you for identifying that Joseph Smith was fallible and human, Captain Obvious.

Now you're playing dumb. I have and in in this post you quoted below. I will bring up another. Joseph attached text to each hieroglyph and for each part of the facsimiles. How would he know which text and how much text for each hieroglyph and each part of the facsimile. Even worse is with the facsimiles. How can he get translations for each part of them if the papyri is only a catalyst. Why would God be this dumb.

Again, Joseph Smith is a mortal human being and not God's sock puppet. He also used seer stones for years and that was uninspired and finally stopped. He even tried to use them to find treasure. Did that prevent God from using Joseph Smith for his purposes? Obviously not.

He used the seer stones as a prop in his claim to translate the Book of Mormon. I guess God didn't have a problem with him using such means.

Clearly, a number of people recalled reading it - yet none of them possessed a copy - a draft - wrote down a few lines from it - nothing - zero - zip?!? Amazing.

This doesn't address the evidence, most of which I suspect you don't even know. Which witness statements was that again were you referring to, or were you just making it up again. Again I don't think the evidence is conclusive, but it' funny to watch people desperate to dismiss anything that might not be comfortable to their beliefs. You show your extreme bias by dismissing real evidence and comparing it to the tooth fairy. You will not gain any credibility this way.

[_Themis]

The evidence, shows quite the contrary. You just won't accept it.

I will. I would like the church to be true. It would make my life simpler. Why is it that the main apologists do not make the claim of all this evidence. Why is it you don't bring it up. The only one I saw was chiamus which has been shown even by apologists not to be evidence for or against the Book of Mormon.

[_Themis]

And yet he was such an amazing writer there are no drafts, no copies, not one shred of manuscript to prove it ever existed. What did he do? Use a laptop computer to write it I suppose. I've seen God, God spoke. Read the Moroni's promise sometime. If you want to know, do what he says. If not, just sit around sucking your thumb. I don't care. The only thing you've ever pointed out is that Joseph Smith was a human being and made bad assumptions. Congrats. Thank you for identifying that Joseph Smith was fallible and human, Captain Obvious. Clearly, a number of people recalled reading it - yet none of them possessed a copy - a draft - wrote down a few lines from it - nothing - zero - zip?!? Amazing.
Tobin

One must understand that the time period is the early 19th century in the fringes of a young America. People didn't have computers ---- paper was expensive. Have you ever written a paper for school and read it to some friends? How many would you give a copy to? You are right when you say Mr. Smith was a man who made mistakes. Isn't it possible he was a man capable of stealing, lying, cheating ----- to achieve the desires of his heart? Satan also appears as an angel of light... Just some food for thought.

Tobin already had a conclusion before even looking at this issue. He doesn't even know most of the evidence. He doesn't even think about some of the things you bring up in order to try and be fair.

[_Themis]

Yep putting too much weight on the statements of the 11 witnesses is putting your trust in the arm of the flesh.

I don't. I put weight in only one witness and that one seems to escape you.

Many do. Funny that they can't seem to agree with it other. Might just be in your head.

[_Franktalk]

One must understand that the time period is the early 19th century in the fringes of a young America. People didn't have computers ---- paper was expensive. Have you ever written a paper for school and read it to some friends? How many would you give a copy to? You are right when you say Mr. Smith was a man who made mistakes. Isn't it possible he was a man capable of stealing, lying, cheating ----- to achieve the desires of his heart? Satan also appears as an angel of light... Just some food for thought.

The Book of Mormon is a large story and consistent with the Bible. At least it is the way I interpret the Bible. I did not read the Bible around some others opinions I read it on my own way before I read the Book of Mormon. Now when I did read the Book my first comment was so what it is nothing new. To me it was just a restatement of what I already knew to be true. To me the work is a masterpiece of Bible message. Now some people have a completely different interpretation of the Bible from my views. To those I say if they love God and their fellow man then they received the bulk of the message. Most of the other stuff is of course fluff. It is there for us to stumble on and argue over. I swear some people I know will argue with Christ when He returns. Such is the way of man.

[_LittleNipper]

The Book of Mormon is a large story and consistent with the Bible. At least it is the way I interpret the Bible. I did not read the Bible around some others opinions I read it on my own way before I read the Book of Mormon. Now when I did read the Book my first comment was so what it is nothing new. To me it was just a restatement of what I already knew to be true. To me the work is a masterpiece of Bible message. Now some people have a completely different interpretation of the Bible from my views. To those I say if they love God and their fellow man then they received the bulk of the message. Most of the other stuff is of course fluff. It is there for us to stumble on and argue over. I swear some people I know will argue with Christ when He returns. Such is the way of man.

Some inconsistances I see concern Nephi and how God handled Labin. The addtion to the Tower of Babel story is out of line with what the Bible reveals. It is like two different authors. Scripture has only one author/editor.

[_Tobin]

And yet he was such an amazing writer there are no drafts, no copies, not one shred of manuscript to prove it ever existed. What did he do? Use a laptop computer to write it I suppose. I've seen God, God spoke. Read the Moroni's promise sometime. If you want to know, do what he says. If not, just sit around sucking your thumb. I don't care. The only thing you've ever pointed out is that Joseph Smith was a human being and made bad assumptions. Congrats. Thank you for identifying that Joseph Smith was fallible and human, Captain Obvious. Clearly, a number of people recalled reading it - yet none of them possessed a copy - a draft - wrote down a few lines from it - nothing - zero - zip?!? Amazing.
Tobin

One must understand that the time period is the early 19th century in the fringes of a young America. People didn't have computers ---- paper was expensive. Have you ever written a paper for school and read it to some friends? How many would you give a copy to? You are right when you say Mr. Smith was a man who made mistakes. Isn't it possible he was a man capable of stealing, lying, cheating ----- to achieve the desires of his heart? Satan also appears as an angel of light... Just some food for thought.

The fringes of America?!? What are you talking about? We are talking about New York state in the early 19th century. New York was not the "fringes" of America.

[_Tobin]

And yet he was such an amazing writer there are no drafts, no copies, not one shred of manuscript to prove it ever existed. What did he do? Use a laptop computer to write it I suppose.

The one manuscript we do have was not found till much later in Hawaii. A copy of it was sent to his daughter. She wrote back that it was not manuscript found story but Conneaut creek.

This doesn't help your case. Apparently he was able to make copies of one work and send them as far as Hawaii, yet any remnant of the mythical manuscript found evaporated into thin air - never to seen again by anyone - anywhere!

Sure I do. I've seen God, God spoke, and the scriptures are true. Read the Moroni's promise sometime. If you want to know, do what he says. If not, just sit around sucking your thumb. I don't care.

The point for the umpteenth time is that you have no experience seeking God and him sowing up. You therefore have no experience to back up what you tell others. Think about what the missionaries say to investigators. Ask God and he will tell you through the HG. They might ask how they know, and they will say because they asked and God and he told them through the HG.

And for the umpteenth time, I've seen God, spoke with him and the scriptures are true. IF you wish to know the truth, you have to seek God and speak with God. If you don't, you can just sit around and wait for God to show up. It is as simple as that.

Again, you have brought up no problems. The only thing you've ever pointed out is that Joseph Smith was a human being and made bad assumptions. Congrats. Thank you for identifying that Joseph Smith was fallible and human, Captain Obvious.

Now you're playing dumb. I have and in in this post you quoted below. I will bring up another. Joseph attached text to each hieroglyph and for each part of the facsimiles. How would he know which text and how much text for each hieroglyph and each part of the facsimile. Even worse is with the facsimiles. How can he get translations for each part of them if the papyri is only a catalyst. Why would God be this dumb.

For the umpteenth time, Joseph Smith didn't know reformed Egyptian and translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God. The fact he speculated about Egyptian Hieroglyphs and didn't know them (nobody during that period did) doesn't help you in the slightest because IT IS NOT HOW HE WAS ABLE TO TRANSLATE. He translated by the power of God, not a knowledge of the language.

Again, Joseph Smith is a mortal human being and not God's sock puppet. He also used seer stones for years and that was uninspired and finally stopped. He even tried to use them to find treasure. Did that prevent God from using Joseph Smith for his purposes? Obviously not.

He used the seer stones as a prop in his claim to translate the Book of Mormon. I guess God didn't have a problem with him using such means.

Agreed. So much for your theory that God made Joseph Smith do everything perfectly from the get-go.

Clearly, a number of people recalled reading it - yet none of them possessed a copy - a draft - wrote down a few lines from it - nothing - zero - zip?!? Amazing.

This doesn't address the evidence, most of which I suspect you don't even know. Which witness statements was that again were you referring to, or were you just making it up again. Again I don't think the evidence is conclusive, but it' funny to watch people desperate to dismiss anything that might not be comfortable to their beliefs. You show your extreme bias by dismissing real evidence and comparing it to the tooth fairy. You will not gain any credibility this way.

For the umpteenth time, what evidence? There is NO evidence other than evidence that there is also a Santa Claus and tooth fairy.

[_Quasimodo]

The fringes of America?!? What are you talking about? We are talking about New York state in the early 19th century. New York was not the "fringes" of America.

Well, Tobin (granted, a small point) in the early 1800's Palmyra New York was the wilderness.

[_Tobin]

The fringes of America?!? What are you talking about? We are talking about New York state in the early 19th century. New York was not the "fringes" of America.

Well, Tobin (granted, a small point) in the early 1800's Palmyra New York was the wilderness.

It is still wilderness.