Tobin wrote: I'm not claiming my nature was any different and I had to wait for my answer. However, you keep saying the same thing the OP does. We have already (sub, jo, myself) pointed out how ridiculous that is. You are not a faithful follower of God. In that case, there is no reason God will answer you other than he chooses to. You can either 1) seek God or 2) wait for God to answer you. If you want an answer now, seek God. If not, you can wait. You are going to see and speak with God regardless.
This is stupid. You claim you had to wait until after you left the church for your answer, yet your attitude suggest something is not right here. It really is stupid to suggest a follower of Jim Jones should keep trying until they get an answer, so why should it be any better then for other religions. You continue to say the opposite of what people say about themselves. I didn't stop believing until after first seeing the spiritual experience is not reliable for objective truth and seeing the evidence against LDS truth claims. It wasn't being lazy or wanting to believe something else, but keep telling yourself that if that's what you need to. I am willing to bet I have spent more years then you as a faithful follower of God, and seeking God as well.
Tobin wrote: I'm not claiming my nature was any different and I had to wait for my answer. However, you keep saying the same thing the OP does. We have already (sub, jo, myself) pointed out how ridiculous that is. You are not a faithful follower of God. In that case, there is no reason God will answer you other than he chooses to. You can either 1) seek God or 2) wait for God to answer you. If you want an answer now, seek God. If not, you can wait. You are going to see and speak with God regardless.
This is stupid. You claim you had to wait until after you left the church for your answer, yet your attitude suggest something is not right here. It really is stupid to suggest a follower of Jim Jones should keep trying until they get an answer, so why should it be any better then for other religions. You continue to say the opposite of what people say about themselves. I didn't stop believing until after first seeing the spiritual experience is not reliable for objective truth and seeing the evidence against LDS truth claims. It wasn't being lazy or wanting to believe something else, but keep telling yourself that if that's what you need to. I am willing to bet I have spent more years then you as a faithful follower of God, and seeking God as well.
I'm not asking you to have faith in Jim Jones. I'm asking you to have faith in and seek God. Please try to stay on topic.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Drifting wrote:Fail. You saw God, so I should follow your example. What was it you were doing when He turned up? And even if I choose to seek God I have no way of knowing I won't be tricked by an imposter because you won't tell me what He looks or sounds like.
I didn't ask you to follow my example. I asked you to seek God and speak with him. The fact you chafe against that request is the problem here. You claim to believe in God, yet you don't believe the sciptures or in a God that can talk to you. There is nothing more that I can do but repeatedly ask you to humble yourself and seek and speak with God.
You are once again incorrect. I sought God for ages, years, decades (with the right intent etc) and He was a no show. I don't claim to believe in God, I don't know if there is a God or not. I hope there is, but I'm not going to spend my life hanging on the end of a phone waiting for someone to pick up in the hopes somebody is home.
Now if there is a God and He asks me why I didn't keep seeking after Him my response will be to point out that He knew where I was and He could have called me at any point. Just like He did with that sinner Tobin.
The point remains, you cannot determine that the bloke who turned up was in fact God. It could have been Apollo for all you know.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Tobin wrote: I'm not asking you to have faith in Jim Jones. I'm asking you to have faith in and seek God. Please try to stay on topic.
That example went right over your head, and shows just how stupid it is to think one should keep trying to get different results by doing the same thing as you want to suggest people do for even for life times. What was that tune from south park's Joesph Smith episode. It's even worse when the evidence shows the church is not what it claims.
Tobin wrote: I'm not asking you to have faith in Jim Jones. I'm asking you to have faith in and seek God. Please try to stay on topic.
That example went right over your head, and shows just how stupid it is to think one should keep trying to get different results by doing the same thing as you want to suggest people do for even for life times. What was that tune from south park's Joesph Smith episode. It's even worse when the evidence shows the church is not what it claims.
Actually Tobin doesn't believe the Church is true, quite the opposite.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
I find it extremely amusing that many of Tobin's (especially Tobin's) and sub's attempts to refute the conclusion stated in my OP only inadvertently reinforce the validity of that very conclusion, and they seem incapable of realizing it!
Last edited by Guest on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Again, you can't fool God Drifting. If it was your determination to seek God, no matter what it took and how long it took (which is the right intent here), then you would get an answer. Your own statement demonstrates that you had no intention to follow through.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Drifting wrote: Actually Tobin doesn't believe the Church is true, quite the opposite.
I know he has very different ideas then what Joseph taught or what the church teaches today. That's fine. They still don't want to have a real conversation on how one knows, although for Tobin it usually revolves around seeing God. To bad their are to many problems with his story.
Tobin wrote: I'm not asking you to have faith in Jim Jones. I'm asking you to have faith in and seek God. Please try to stay on topic.
That example went right over your head, and shows just how stupid it is to think one should keep trying to get different results by doing the same thing as you want to suggest people do for even for life times. What was that tune from south park's Joesph Smith episode. It's even worse when the evidence shows the church is not what it claims.
No, it didn't go over my head. You just don't understand what I'm saying is all. One should seek and speak with God and do what God says to do. Your assumption is that you should be Mormon (or follow Jim Jones in your example) then ask God if that is right. That is what is stupid.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Again, you can't fool God Drifting. If it was your determination to seek God, no matter what it took and how long it took (which is the right intent here), then you would get an answer. Your own statement demonstrates that you had no intention to follow through.
Jim Jones example. Still going over his head. I hide good intents as a believer with no intentions to stop. I did only because I could see the method was flawed and to much evidence showing the church was not what it claims. I am very comfortable that a good God would say I did the right thing. My intention shave always been to to and believe what I think and hope is right and true. People like you need to believe otherwise. What ever.