Marlin K Jensen: Large numbers NOT apostatizing

[_ludwigm]

If 99.99999% of the Church apostatizes, leaving only me and the newly rebaptized Kevin Graham, God will walk away and call it a success.

I like austere people. They are sooooo real.

[_Drifting]

The difficulty the Church faces is that it isn't in tune with the needs of its members.
Instead the Church tries to change the needs of its members so they fall into line with what the Church is trying to sell.

What currently is a main driver of society?

Equality - for women, for differing races, for differing sexualities, for differing physical abilities.
Schools now cater for children of differing physical and mental abilities. In generations past these children would have been segregated away from the main stream education channels - not now; and society is better for the change into acceptence and integration.
Corporations now employ people (for the most part) on the basis of a persons ability to do the job and don't exclude females, gays, blacks etc Because society now knows how wrong the discrimination of the past was. Can a person not do a good job because they are gay/black/female?

Everywhere you look, the Human race is trying to make things more and more equal for everyone - but not in the Church.

The Church doesn't sell equality, it sells inequality. It's out of touch with humanity and arguable out of touch with how Christ would treat people. The Church is selling the message that people shouldn't be treated equally. It is of no surprise that message is being rejected from without and from within.

[_Runtu]

I think the worst thing that could happen to the LDS Church right now is that people be increasingly apathetic about it, like I am quickly becoming.

From what I've seen, that is indeed what is happening, and it's a much bigger problem for the church than is the steady but small flow of apostates.

[_subgenius]

Fail for sub. Sub I suggest you Google "false dichotomy".

i suggest you Google "irony"

[_subgenius]

A quick lesson for sub.

A dichotomy is the division of a whole into two distinct non overlapping subsets.

it is not possible to be a good Mormon and a democrat

Splits out good Mormons and democrats into two non overlapping subsets.

A false dichotomy is a dichotomy that is a false dilema. It is demonstrably false.

Pres. Faust is both by the accepted definition a "good Mormon" and a democrat.

Ergo the dichotomy is false, and BC was just talking out of his hiney.

wow, the self-inflation around here is nice.
here is another quick lesson:
Irony-
a sharp incongruity or discordance that goes beyond the simple and evident intention of words or actions.

[_Themis]

I think the worst thing that could happen to the LDS Church right now is that people be increasingly apathetic about it, like I am quickly becoming.

From what I've seen, that is indeed what is happening, and it's a much bigger problem for the church than is the steady but small flow of apostates.

I think members who openly leave due to intellectual issues are small in comparison to those who no longer believe or have significantly less belief in the literal truth claims of the church. As such why should they put to much effort into the church when they have more important things to do and worry about.

[_subgenius]

The difficulty the Church faces is that it isn't in tune with the needs of its members.
Instead the Church tries to change the needs of its members so they fall into line with what the Church is trying to sell.

ugh.
why would the Church desire to be reflective rather than directive? The scriptures are not some sort of fill-in-the-blank text. For example - commandments.
Your statement here calls into question your understanding of not only organized religion, but religion itself.

What currently is a main driver of society?

survival...but wait, which society?

Equality - for women, for differing races, for differing sexualities, for differing physical abilities.
Schools now cater for children of differing physical and mental abilities. In generations past these children would have been segregated away from the main stream education channels - not now; and society is better for the change into acceptence and integration.

a huge crock here. Equality? you had me going at first but you seem to want to cloak homogenization with equality. Treating people differently is what you would term as equality??
your phrase "Schools now cater for..." is a prime example. The school now accommodates, it does not treat equal. Different curriculum for different students is hardly "equal" treatment. The following is minor example:
When i was in school we had an elevator that served the building - obviously for those students with physical handicap that could not maneuver up and down the stairs - they indeed deserve equal access to the upper floors - agreed! However, this elevator was exclusive for their use only and was not for general student population - ergo, not equal treatment. Equal treatment would be an elevator for any and all to use (obviously).
Interestingly enough the ADA (american with disabilities act) has huge exceptions for religious organizations/places of worship.

Corporations now employ people (for the most part) on the basis of a persons ability to do the job and don't exclude females, gays, blacks etc Because society now knows how wrong the discrimination of the past was.

Society does not "know" anything. The illusion you speak of is due to forcible actions taken by a government to impose upon said society. The groups you speak of are still in a massive minority in executive positions and equitable compensation. There is a big difference between what government values and what society values...tax evasion proves this rather simple point over and over.

Can a person not do a good job because they are gay/black/female?

depends on the job (ie Grand Wizard of the Klan)

Everywhere you look, the Human race is trying to make things more and more equal for everyone - but not in the Church.

totally disagree with this statement, mainly because reality does not confirm it.
The human race is only concerned with survival. About the only thing being made "more and more" is access...what is done with that access is likely an individual decision, as it should be.
You seem to be supporting the Stepford wives approach to society.

The Church doesn't sell equality, it sells inequality.

Actually the Church sells neither...it mainly sells magazines, books, videos, etc..

It's out of touch with humanity and arguable out of touch with how Christ would treat people.

nowhere near as much as your post is.

The Church is selling the message that people shouldn't be treated equally. It is of no surprise that message is being rejected from without and from within.

people should not be treated equally.
i mean, when you write "people should be treated equally" what does that even mean? it is so an abstract concept it fails beyond being a nifty bumper sticker.
Think about "love one another" - ok, we should all do that, sure, and it appears to be a statement of "equality"...but it is not. What do we mean by love? heck, the atheist can't even believe in love because there is no evidence that love exists. Does the love we have for our children "equal" the love we have for our spouse? our neighbor? our community?...not likely, because it is "different" in its application, its action.

So, when someone talks about equality they usually are just re-applying discrimination upon another set of attributes.
Sure, it used to be ok to "discriminate" against blacks for certain jobs because all the evidence was convincing that they were not qualified. Now we say black does not matter, but a diploma does.
Society values new things now, we see an advantage (survival) to letting go of the old discrimination and adopting the new one. Asbestos was once good...DDT was good.....giving children alcohol in school to calm them down was also good.
What is out of touch with Christ is thinking that His teachings are malleable to the whims of society, that they are supposed to formed by the temporal, as you state above, "needs of its members"...this is simply not the case. The beauty and power of the Gospel is that it immutable, that it is beyond the abilities of mere men to corrupt...a corruption you seemingly would relish.

[_Fifth Columnist]

I think the worst thing that could happen to the LDS Church right now is that people be increasingly apathetic about it, like I am quickly becoming.

I think this is right. However, the apathy really only matters when it shows up as reduced tithing income. That is the biggest threat to the Church.

There are some who are so angry at the Church that they want to bring it down. The way to do that is to convince members to stop paying tithing.

[_Tobin]

The way to do that is to convince members to stop paying tithing.

You aren't going to bring the church down. You don't need much money to actually have a church. All you need is someone's house to meet at, a loaf of bread and cup of water. You MIGHT reform the church; however, and I'm all for that.

[_Runtu]

You aren't going to bring the church down. You don't need much money to actually have a church. All you need is someone's house to meet at, a loaf of bread and cup of water. You MIGHT reform the church; however, and I'm all for that.

The church isn't just a group of people meeting together. It's a large corporation with a lot of assets. That's what will suffer if tithing decreases.