The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

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_Roger Morrison
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Franktalk wrote:Just how many times in Biblical history did all of the people or even a majority of them follow the Lord the way they should? With all of the support from God by supplying prophets, Kings, and Apostles one might think that the Jews or the Christians would collect around the truth. But just as we are all sinners we are all weak. The world is strong and we do fall. So very few actually read scripture with spiritual eyes and discern the message from God. This is a problem of man and not of any one church. All churches suffer the same fate. They all need to be reset all of the time.




That, which I've highlighted, you have correct, Frank!
Using biblical language we are called "sinners". However, in current, common language it seems more appropriate, less defamatory, to say humans are prone to error while on their learning curves. Since we all share that human trait there is no need to condemn. Rather we should be understanding & helpful, in my opinion. . . True we all have weaknesses of various kinds & degrees that we can help each other overcome, as i understand Jesus' teachings. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, churches do need to be reset. Not easy overcoming 1,000s of years of error & ignorance. So much indoctrination! But little by little, sport field brutality and drinking wine, water & grape juice as Jesus' blood will lose favor with the human mass.

Time was when there were no "Smoke Free" public places! "Wheel Chair Access" was unknown. As was integration in schools and work places! Now they're taken for granted
in North America & other enlightened parts of the world. Time will come when the spirit of civility will Trump the letters that support hostility, corruption and greed. . .

Enjoy your moments! Roger
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Franktalk
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Franktalk »

Sheryl,

We are told to have faith even unto death. In some cases people are asked to deny Christ and take another faith. True faith will not allow someone to deny Christ, they would rather die and leave this world. This is the classic martyr. I know you already know this. Many people give their life to Christ but never face death the way I just described. It is easy for some sitting in their chair surrounded by laws and armies that protect them. I have to wonder just how many would face death for what they believe? I know millions have given their lives in Christ name over the years. But not here in the States. How quickly some lose their God given sight.
_sheryl
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _sheryl »

Roger Morrison wrote:
That, which I've highlighted, you have correct, Frank!
Using biblical language we are called "sinners". However, in current, common language it seems more appropriate, less defamatory, to say humans are prone to error while on their learning curves. Since we all share that human trait there is no need to condemn. Rather we should be understanding & helpful, in my opinion. . . True we all have weaknesses of various kinds & degrees that we can help each other overcome, as i understand Jesus' teachings. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, churches do need to be reset. Not easy overcoming 1,000s of years of error & ignorance. So much indoctrination! But little by little, sport field brutality and drinking wine, water & grape juice as Jesus' blood will lose favor with the human mass.

Time was when there were no "Smoke Free" public places! "Wheel Chair Access" was unknown. As was integration in schools and work places! Now they're taken for granted
in North America & other enlightened parts of the world. Time will come when the spirit of civility will Trump the letters that support hostility, corruption and greed. . .

Enjoy your moments! Roger


We see in scripture that Jesus came to bring down religion/churches as the world had known such until that time.

No longer was Gods' Presence only accessible through Priests or Elders or through certain buildings or places.

Through Jesus' perfect giving, we now had access to God directly, men and women alike, any place, any time. We no longer needed men or to be approved by men, or church Elders, before we could draw close to God. We no longer needed special places or buildings or Temples erected. For we are the Temples of God and can draw close to him within our self, engage in worship, wonderworking, in ourselves, anytime and anyplace.

And no longer did God give spiritual authority over others to any man or collective of men.

This does not mean that there would no longer be sages, Apostles and Prophets. Only that they were given to us now to help, according to our free will asking, no longer having any religious authority over us.

Shalom!

Sheryl
_sheryl
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _sheryl »

Franktalk wrote:Sheryl,

We are told to have faith even unto death. In some cases people are asked to deny Christ and take another faith. True faith will not allow someone to deny Christ, they would rather die and leave this world. This is the classic martyr. I know you already know this. Many people give their life to Christ but never face death the way I just described. It is easy for some sitting in their chair surrounded by laws and armies that protect them. I have to wonder just how many would face death for what they believe? I know millions have given their lives in Christ name over the years. But not here in the States. How quickly some lose their God given sight.


Dear Frank,

1 Cor 13:13 And now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Indeed faith is important, but faith in what? What Christ are we not to deny?

Christ as defined by other men, by religions? Christ is we find evidence for? The Christ of doctrines, opinions and ideas?

There is a difference in giving up our life for Christ, and giving up our life to prove how much we think we are right? Do you see the difference?

I will die for you God because I think I am right! Is this martyrdom? There are lots of people in this world, suicide bombers for example, who are willing to die to prove how much they think they are right, and if we are dying to prove ourselves right, we are dying to prove others wrong. Is this love? Is this hope?

What does faith that walks with hope and love look like?

The faith that the Bible calls us to is much greater than this, and it only grows, or flourishes, develops, with hope and love. And in the end only faith, hope and love remain. And so if we walk towards martyrdom without these, what will remain as we die? Nothing, at least this is what Paul teaches, yes? And without love, it is all just noise, distraction. So if we die without love, we have died in vain. For no reason at all.

Without love, our faith is nothing, it is merely noise, and giving our life for empty faith is not martyrdom.

So what is this faith that walks with hope and love?

Hebrews 11 gives us a wonderful discourse on faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


The faith that scripture speaks of is faith in things that are unseen. It is not faith in ideas about God, or doctrines, or religions or prophets, or faith in any evidence of our ideas about God. We cannot prove our faith to others with anything that is seen in this world. The only proof of our faith is love.

The outward manifestation of our faith is love, the inward manifestation is a devotion and focus not on this world, but on things unseen.

Those who have faith are not walking focusing on this world They are not focusing on events that unfold in this world or what all the evidence in this world is pointing to.

The faith that we are called to is inexplicable. It rises from within. It is a trust, a knowing, a certainty, that all is and will continue to unfold according to God's will, no matter how things appear in this world. And so in such faith, such trust, we can simply love. We do not need to prove ourselves, or stand up for ourselves or our beliefs, we just love, no matter what happens in this world.

Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.” And Peter answered Him and said, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” So He said, “Come.” And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.

Head in the clouds, feet on earth. Focusing above, on Christ, walking here in hope for all beings - that all will receive the promises, loving all as though they are our self. This is the Key.

Faith, hope and love are the only things that remain, the only things that will bring us into the Kingdom, for these are the Kingdom, the greatest being Love. And if we do not love all, walk in hope for all, walk in faith of God's Power and Ability to heal all, to save all, to redeem, no matter how things appear here, we will not remain. If we do not have hope and love for all things, faith in all things, full faith in God, then we will fall away just like everything else that is temporal in this world.

We must become as that which remains. We must become Love, Hope and Faith.

Colossians 3

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

When our focus is on Christ, when we love fully, we offer ourselves fully to Christ, to be used in this world to benefit others. So it is not that our life is taken from us by those who are wrong or evil, but that we willingly lay down our life, we do not resist others who wish us harm, loving all, trusting God.

As it was with Isaac. Did you know that he was 35 when Abraham took him up the mountain to sacrifice him? Isaac went willingly with his Father, fully understanding what was unfolding, trusting as Abraham that God would indeed provide all that was needed, meaning that if God called for Isaac to lay down his life, it would not have been a sacrifice, Isaac loving fully in self offering, understanding that if God wanted his life, he himself must not need it anymore.

Shalom!

Sheryl
_Franktalk
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Franktalk »

Hi Sheryl,

Yes I am aware of the age of Isaac when Abraham was called. I wonder what kind of relationship Isaac had with God prior to going with his father.

You are right that we are to be driven by love and not an idea. Man kills and dies for many ideas. But to love God and desire to be with Him drives many. If you seek God and someone tells you to deny Him then you must decide. Is my life worth the risk of not going to the one I love. But can we deny Christ and still go to Him? Of course we can. Peter denied Christ three times, but that was before Pentecost. After Peter received the Holy Spirit would he deny Christ? I don't think so. If you are filled with the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit will not deny Christ.

You are right when we are driven by love and follow the spirit we go where we should. When we go based on earthly desires we may mimic the behavior of the righteous but we only serve our self and not God. The worldly can not see the difference.

It is so nice to chat with you.

Frank
_Franktalk
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Franktalk »

I think we should stand back and view the world's religions as several competing ideas or spiritual awakenings. Each spiritual awakening leads to many branches where man's ideas pry apart some original truth. One original truth is that God is all powerful. Some have latched onto that and used that idea to rule over people and kill people in order to gain control over a larger part of humanity. It has been a long practice of Satan to use half truths. The spiritual truth of love has brought many into religion but the seeking to know exactly what is God has made many branches in doctrine. And of course there are the religions where a single man is placed between God and you. This breaks the personal relationship between you and God and serves man's will and not God's. So how does the LDS church line up with all of this? I can say that for me it is a restored Gospel and a reset of the authority to perform the ordinances. But at the same time there is enough for many to stumble on. This is normal and we see this in the Bible as well. To the degree that the LDS church is successful it will be driven by the Spirit. To the degree it is not successful it will be driven by man.
_sheryl
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _sheryl »

Shalom Frank!

According to Jewish teachings, the patriarchs of Judaism each represent an aspect of the Name or a divine attribute, they together grounding all attributes of God's Name, YHWH, so that the Messiah could incarnate bearing the Divine Name of the Father in full.

Abraham grounded Hesed, or Mercy.

Isaac grounded Gevurah, or Severity/Judgment.

And so the play between Abraham and Isaac at the place of sacrifice was crucial, bringing the balance of Hesed and Gevurah. Abraham, though fully Hesed, taking on the energy of Gevurah in being willing to offer Isaac, and Isaac, though fully Gevurah, taking on the energy of Hesed in being willing to offer himself fully.

It was a crucial moment in preparing the way for the incarnation of the Messiah.

Much more can be learned of these and all patriarchs through the study of Judaism, especially Jewish Mysticism.

And yes, all religions have a place in this world. All are preparing souls at various levels.

We are not each in the same place, or have the same need in the process of awakening and expanding our consciousness through healing and illumination as we are exposed to greater and greater light. And so each religion or even each group within religions will carry different gradations of light, different 'intensities of truth', each providing something that the souls gathering around them need - even if we get tangled with a religion that causes pain. The pain was a necessary part of our journey.

It takes this kind of faith, trust - knowing all things are working for good, no matter how unpleasant, painful or inauspicious they may seem, in order for us, the entire world, to find the truth that will make us free.

Blessings to you and to your loved ones.

It is a joy to chat with you as well.

Sheryl
_Roger Morrison
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Franktalk wrote:I think we should stand back and view the world's religions as several competing ideas or spiritual awakenings. Each spiritual awakening leads to many branches where man's ideas pry apart some original truth. One original truth is that God is all powerful. Some have latched onto that and used that idea to rule over people and kill people in order to gain control over a larger part of humanity. It has been a long practice of Satan to use half truths. The spiritual truth of love has brought many into religion but the seeking to know exactly what is God has made many branches in doctrine. And of course there are the religions where a single man is placed between God and you. This breaks the personal relationship between you and God and serves man's will and not God's. So how does the LDS church line up with all of this? I can say that for me it is a restored Gospel and a reset of the authority to perform the ordinances. But at the same time there is enough for many to stumble on. This is normal and we see this in the Bible as well. To the degree that the LDS church is successful it will be driven by the Spirit. To the degree it is not successful it will be driven by man.



I agree Frank. We should stand / step back and view the world's Christian sects/religions. . .

What 'good' are they contributing to humanity? And what 'bad' are they bringing about? Some do more 'good' than others. Most however, simply because they collectively preach the doctrines of original sin, salvation through the blood of Christ, redemption and resurrection, are leading humanity away from the principles of love and cooperation that Christ, and other enlightened teachers have advocated.

You are also somewhat correct with your perception re the personal relationship between humans and "God".

Humans are born with the "authority" to discover, disclose and utilize the secrets of the Universe ("God" in your lexicon) to benefit the Universe and its creatures. It seems obvious, to me at least, that scientists are more qualified than clergy to improve the quality of all life on our planet. . . Another bit of 'obviousness': Clergy influenced the world for 1,000s of years, with a rather slow movement of 'quality'. Science has had influence for maybe 500+/- years. Consider the social and technological advances in the last 150 to 200 years! Like WOW!!

As churches spend more emphasis on the "Spirit" and less on the "Letter" the better will be their effect. . .

A long way to go! But look how far we've come!! Enjoy this life. There's non other :-)

The issue of "authority" to do anything in the name of God, is dark, primitive ludicrousness. in my opinion. Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Sheryl, hope you don't mind my intrusion. . . I find your comments very interesting. Thank you for them!
You said:

"It takes this kind of faith, trust - knowing all things are working for good, no matter how unpleasant, painful or inauspicious they may seem, in order for us, the entire world, to find the truth that will make us free." As Jesus is said to have said.
Whether one believes in Jesus' saving-grace or not, IF they recognize "truth" and live by it, the world advances!

I agree, things are working for good through the application of proper sciences and honest, unprejudiced enlightenment. Coming through applied intellectual effort/energy and conscience to our world's social needs!

I think one of the barriers to this is the mental commitment of a part of "professing-believers" to Armageddon and "the-second-coming." Very unfortunate that they have such a distorted view of reality. Preferring a war to peaceful resolutions of our differences...as Jesus advocated. Sad indeed that such folks feel so indifferent to their neighbor. I guess that's what the "good Samaritan parable" was/is all about??? Oh well. . .
Warm regards, Roger
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Franktalk
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Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God

Post by _Franktalk »

Sheryl,

It is obvious that there exist a connection between the physical plane and the spiritual. Each side advances by steps and each side is dependent on the other to progress to the next step. We can not go from atheist to a walk with God in one step. It seems to me I have examined my path and have tried to place that path into words. I may be able to describe my path but all paths are different even though they all head in one direction. They all start with our unique spirit and each of us is different. But we also exist as a group, we share many things that we are not even aware of. As one spirit advances it helps all others. The path to righteousness slowly breaks away a wall between all men and spiritual truth. But evil does its best to fix that wall so men are locked here in the flesh. Your comments on Abraham are right on. The types we see in scripture are for many purposes besides a heads up for the future. We all act out our roles. Even the earth and the rain are part of this stage. Only when our soul sees this can we obtain a conscience understanding of what we are doing. Yet even without the conscience understanding we are all advancing in spirit. And when we think the soul is locked away because the flesh is behaving badly it is actually attending an advanced class on character. Yes the curtain has been drawn up and the stage lighting is bright and what everyone should know is that there are no exits left or right. We all play our part until the last player is snatched away.

Frank
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