Native American use of Sacred Metal Tablets

[_Themis]

Hello Themis,

It isn't just a blanket self-delusion. Doctors practice diagnosis based on intuition from their expertise, sometimes the nuanced precision can find subtleties computerized diagnostics miss. Expertise allows for a reliability in intuition. It isn't certainty or perfect but it can be quite reliable.

I doubt anyone is suggesting a divine source, but the knowledge and experience informing the conscious mind of a possible diagnosis. You can also test to see how much reliability there is. It's the same of the mechanic trying to diagnose what is wrong with your car. We see it in every mundane activity humans engage in.

If the underlying intuition of a divine reality is reliable I see no reason why a similar pattern of intuition and expertise and skill would not exist. But as I said, it goes to the reliability of the sense itself.

We can test the doctor, so how do you test the claims of the divine reality. Until it can be tested the only reasonable view is I don't know. Should we look at objective claims from it like the doctor does and see if if they are right?

Now I personally tend to agree with you with respect to the narrow interpretations that we can through other faculties (moral, logical) nearly falsify that Ed is allowing biases to influence this sense, but he isn't inconsistent.

The internal sensations and thoughts are very subjective. I haven't seen any reliable way to come up with objective facts about the universe. Ed's consistency is just in how he interprets certain experiences with his world view in mind. This is true for millions of people with their own very different interpretations around the world. What's the reliable difference? Each person's world view.

[_Themis]

Oh, I totally get what you are saying. You just don't want to accept anything I have to say as an answer, because you think that the more you repeat yourself, that somehow that proves that my answer was inadequate. I have repeatedly said that through long experience, one comes to know with more solidity that certain intuition, call it thought, call it dreams, call it feelings, call it manifestations, whatever one's gift happens to be, whatever the manifestation happens to be, comes from the spirit. And that discernment comes only with that experience. You want people to boil down long experience and mental effort and subjective acceptance of intimate facts of the heart and mind into a recipe that is convincing to you. The more a radio is tuned, the better and clearer the reception. And through experience with the patterns and instructions that come via this channel that result in good and correct choices with obedience to it, the more clearer it becomes that it is indeed what it was claimed to be. I'm ok with the fact that you don't accept anything I said or continue to say as an answer, because my reality doesn't revolve around your acceptance. As I always have said, its a waste of time talking to a lot of you anyway, and your lucky I even pipe in to contribute at all to subject myself at all to a conversation, because I really, truly owe you nothing at all. So you can either be cordial and accept the answer as an answer, or you can just continue to go around the merry-go-round with your non-acceptance. Either way, I continue to not spend much time or effort answering, until finally when I'm utterly bored with the fact that you keep up with it, I entirely abandon the thread.

I accept you gave an answer, but it is not an answer to my question. I asked for specifics on how one knows. All you do is give very vague long experience. It's no better then saying I know because I know. If I asked the doctor on his diagnosis on how he thinks he is right, she/he can go into some detail of the symptoms and what they can usually mean. They can also be tested to see if the are reliably right. Some doctors are better then others.

You bring up patterns but what specific methods are you using? Radio waves, which we cannot see hear or feel, are understood exceptionally well. So much so that there is universal or almost universal agreement on how they work and what they mean. Just like gravity. Huge reliability for both. Not so with your spiritual experiences. Most of your interpretations cannot be tested other then some of the objective claims people come up with. You don't give any reasons to reject the possibility of the natural environment and body being the source, although I suspect you would go there with people who get a very different meaning then you.

Religions are good at getting members on the road to self delusion. They tell you how to interpret spiritual experiences and those who strongly believe them are good candidates to consistently interpret them the way their religions tells them, and over time they become more deluded. Not all TBMs are this way. CCC is a TBM who admits he doesn't really know, but he has strong belief anyways. He is 65 and a strong lifelong member, so I doubt he has lacked much when it comes to spiritual experience. I know both types in my life and I respect them both. Self delusion is a strong human trait all of us have to watch out for.

[_EdGoble]

I accept you gave an answer, but it is not an answer to my question. I asked for specifics on how one knows. All you do is give very vague long experience. It's no better then saying I know because I know. If I asked the doctor on his diagnosis on how he thinks he is right, she/he can go into some detail of the symptoms and what they can usually mean. They can also be tested to see if the are reliably right. Some doctors are better then others.

You bring up patterns but what specific methods are you using? Radio waves, which we cannot see hear or feel, are understood exceptionally well. So much so that there is universal or almost universal agreement on how they work and what they mean. Just like gravity. Huge reliability for both. Not so with your spiritual experiences. Most of your interpretations cannot be tested other then some of the objective claims people come up with. You don't give any reasons to reject the possibility of the natural environment and body being the source, although I suspect you would go there with people who get a very different meaning then you.

Religions are good at getting members on the road to self delusion. They tell you how to interpret spiritual experiences and those who strongly believe them are good candidates to consistently interpret them the way their religions tells them, and over time they become more deluded. Not all TBMs are this way. CCC is a TBM who admits he doesn't really know, but he has strong belief anyways. He is 65 and a strong lifelong member, so I doubt he has lacked much when it comes to spiritual experience. I know both types in my life and I respect them both. Self delusion is a strong human trait all of us have to watch out for.

Here we go again. About two cycles ago, I asked if you were done. I guess you are not. When my kids hit the same key on the piano, that's something that isn't to be equated with a meaningful or nice-sounding song, is it?

I am a unique person not to be put in any category, as I defy any kind description or pidgeon-hole-ing in any kind of category.

I am not an apologist, a critic, a TBM, a New Order Mormon or Middle-way-er. The only thing that I have in common with apologists is that I ultimately seek to defend, but without making excuses. The only thing I have in common with TBMs is that I follow the prophet, but I do it for the sake of obedience and loyalty because it is what is expected of me, not out of a notion that they are supermen or demigods. The only thing I have in common with New Order Mormons is that I consider myself a person that has been through the ringer of the faith crisis experience and came out the other side to reconstruct myself into a new creature of some other sort. The only thing I have in common with critics is that I seek for transparency and disagree with apologetics of the dishonest sort. I defy categorization. And so, no, just because some guy is a TBM that has fallen into the trap of thinking that he cannot know but can only believe, after rubbing shoulders with others too much that have robbed him of his birthright of knowing, does not mean that he has anything on me, or that there is some superiority of his position over mine. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but calling me delusional or passing off my knowledge as delusion is just precisely what I would expect from the inhabitants of the Great and Spacious. But it is what it is, and it won't stop being so just because of your words or your lack of acceptance of my replies.

And I already described what people of other faiths know by the spirit. I've said it before in other threads. They know only what they need to know in the state that they find themselves. They are given no more than they need to know to perform the work that is assigned to them in life. There is no reason to believe that every person on this planet can perform the work assigned to them if they were to join Mormonism prematurely. And that means that some of them die in that state and are dependent on living Mormons to be saviors on Mount Zion to them after death.

[_Themis]

Here we go again. About two cycles ago, I asked if you were done. I guess you are not. When my kids hit the same key on the piano, that's something that isn't to be equated with a meaningful or nice-sounding song, is it?

The problem of repeating is not with me Ed. We cannot move forward if you won't attempt to answer the question. Not that I am worried. I haven't seen anyone answer it yet. This is because they and you do not really know. You just believe you do. Some TBM's understand this and are comfortable with it, and some are not.

I am a unique person not to be put in any category, as I defy any kind description or pidgeon-hole-ing in any kind of category.

I am not an apologist, a critic, a TBM, a New Order Mormon or Middle-way-er.

I'm sure you are unique, but my definition of TBM is quite diverse and not meant as an insult. It's just someone who is a True Believing Mormon. Some members pretend to believe, but I think you are a true believer in the church's core truth claims.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but calling me delusional or passing off my knowledge as delusion is just precisely what I would expect from the inhabitants of the Great and Spacious.

I understand delusion is not a flattering trait, but it is a common one. One that most, if not all of us, suffer from to some extent. Your knowledge here is just information you think is accurate, but cannot articulate how like a doctor can with his intuitions in getting the right diagnosis with enough consistency to be considered reliable. His can be tested while yours cannot. How does something you cannot test be realistically considered accurate knowledge? If I cannot test something I cannot know it is accurate. We can though with your radio waves.

And I already described what people of other faiths know by the spirit. I've said it before in other threads. They know only what they need to know in the state that they find themselves. They are given no more than they need to know to perform the work that is assigned to them in life. There is no reason to believe that every person on this planet can perform the work assigned to them if they were to join Mormonism prematurely. And that means that some of them die in that state and are dependent on living Mormons to be saviors on Mount Zion to them after death.

This is just an assertion we can find many of them saying about you. In many cases their knowing by the spirit will conflict with your knowing by the spirit. How many FLDS think they know through the spirit that Warren Jeffs Is God's only true prophet on the earth?

[_EdGoble]

If I cannot test something I cannot know it is accurate.

Well then if you want empirical evidence, you won't mind subjecting yourself to the lifelong test of faith to get your second comforter experience with the Savior. Let's see how delusional it is then when you actually touch the marks in his hands and feet and see for yourself.

[_Xenophon]

If I cannot test something I cannot know it is accurate.

Well then if you want empirical evidence, you won't mind subjecting yourself to the lifelong test of faith to get your second comforter experience with the Savior. Let's see how delusional it is then when you actually touch the marks in his hands and feet and see for yourself.

Ed, what about all the millions (if not billions) that claim to have subjected themselves to this test and have come away with very different answers than yours? What about those of us that earnestly desired but did not see or feel the marks for ourselves? I personally believe there is something greater than me, even if I can't prove it or show it. It is quite another to suggest that your method is some kind of empirical test that has highly consistent results.

[_spotlight]

Well then if you want empirical evidence, you won't mind subjecting yourself to the lifelong test of faith to get your second comforter experience with the Savior. Let's see how delusional it is then when you actually touch the marks in his hands and feet and see for yourself.

No need to waste a lifetime on a test that bears no fruit when others are willing to share their experience with the 2nd comforter.

[Guest]

Well then if you want empirical evidence, you won't mind subjecting yourself to the lifelong test of faith to get your second comforter experience with the Savior. Let's see how delusional it is then when you actually touch the marks in his hands and feet and see for yourself.

No need to waste a lifetime on a test that bears no fruit when others are willing to share their experience with the 2nd comforter.

I'm struggling with "empirical evidence" and "lifelong test of faith" being in the same sentence.

Sister Thedra (a.k.a. Dorothy Martin) underwent a lifelong test of faith in Sananda, the *true* name of Jesus Christ. She survived a study in cognitive dissonance, made pilgrimage to a theosophical abbey in Peru, lived at Mount Shasta in the company of reincarnated Lemurians (earning the reverence of Shirley Maclaine), before she made her final home in Arizona, where she continued her communications with "the Savior" and others. She never recanted her experiences even when numerous hoaxes and pranks were revealed behind them.

You can read about her in When Prophecy Fails, the classic study of cognitive dissonance, under the pseudonym "Marian Keetch".

[_EdGoble]

Well then if you want empirical evidence, you won't mind subjecting yourself to the lifelong test of faith to get your second comforter experience with the Savior. Let's see how delusional it is then when you actually touch the marks in his hands and feet and see for yourself.

No need to waste a lifetime on a test that bears no fruit when others are willing to share their experience with the 2nd comforter.

Oh brother. Don't be silly. Tom Phillips admits that he never saw Christ. Calling and election and second anointing never came with a promise that Christ would appear immediately after, but at some time in the future of Christ's own choosing with a person continuing in obedience. There is no guarantee when the Second Comforter experience would happen. It may take years after calling and election is made sure. And Tom Phillips decided afterward that it wasn't worth it enough to endure, so he missed his chance anyway.

Perhaps if Tom Phillps hasn't committed the unpardonable sin as he fears he has (which incidentally, I doubt he has), then he will be buffeted until he repents in the hereafter like the rest of humanity that is not faithful.

If you think it bears no fruit and you live your life in such a way that it does not, then you will surely be among those for whom it bears no fruit, who gave up on it too soon.

[_EdGoble]

Ed, what about all the millions (if not billions) that claim to have subjected themselves to this test and have come away with very different answers than yours? What about those of us that earnestly desired but did not see or feel the marks for ourselves? I personally believe there is something greater than me, even if I can't prove it or show it. It is quite another to suggest that your method is some kind of empirical test that has highly consistent results.

It is highly consistent that everyone at some point in their existence with continued faithfulness gets calling and election, and then Second Comforter, in this life or the next. That is a consistent promise for those willing to endure. But the faithless will never know for themselves until they see Christ in a not-so-favorable circumstance, and then too late, like the five foolish virgins.

I already told you in a message just a little ways up in this thread why people who are not Mormon get the answers they need to fulfill their respective missions in life, often resulting in them not being Mormon until the hereafter. I guess you didn't pay attention.