Polygamy---Commanded by God in the Old Testament or Tolerated?

[_charity]

The only background information I have is Joseph's journal. The one which covered this period of time is called the Third Illinois Journal. Many revelations were recorded in this journal. This wasn't.

Wow! That would be interesting to read. Where did you locate that? Is there a link on where something like that could be ordered?

Were there any revelations recorded in that journal that are not currently recorded in the D&C?

There is an article in the Dec 2007 Ensign. I think this is the link to it.

link

Revelations were put into the current Doctrine and Covenants.

[_charity]

I just tried a little experiment.

I began talking to the TV. No matter what channel I changed it to, it didn't seem to respond to anything I commented on. It was like it was oblivious to anything I said even though it made all this noise. Depending on the channel, some things appeared to reflect some sort of intelligence, but not particularly about the subject at hand.

Experiment, now over. I think I will turn it off.

Bye Charitv.

click.

So you worship the god TV? You are right. Your god is dead.

Mine isn't.

[_Jason Bourne]

Charity, what is your take on this? Do you have any additional background information on this?

I am skeptical for several reasons.

1.My take is anybody can say anything they want after a person is dead when they can't refute it.

2. The only background information I have is Joseph's journal. The one which covered this period of time is called the Third Illinois Journal. Many revelations were recorded in this journal. This wasn't.

3. But beyond that, it is not in character with what we know of Joseph Smith. But it does mesh with William Marks. He was an early and outspoken critic of polygamy. This fit in with his ideas.

But it doesn't sound like Joseph's ideas to me at all.

Well much of what Brigham and other pro polygamists said is not from Joseph directly either. In fact we have very little if any from Joseph and most of what is directly from him he denies it, even publicly. Most of what we have from Nauvoo was written by William Clayton. So why believe the SLC polygamists more the Marks? From what I have read about Marks, I like him and think he may have been accurate. Keep in mind Marks was President of the Nauvoo stake at the time. During this period that position was much more then what we view a stake pres as today. He was the SP over the central stake and even in live to succeed Joseph. He has as much authority as BY did and in fact more for the central power issues related to the Church since the 12's authority was only in places where stakes were not organized. The 12 had no authority over Elders or High Priests but Marks did. The 12 had authority over 70's which one of the reasons after Joseph Smith was killed BY made hundreds of Elders and High Priests 70's.

I think Marks may have be more accurate then you think. To bad we will never know.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason,

I think Marks may have be more accurate then you think. To bad we will never know.

I'm with you on this.


First, we know Joseph Smith stated that some revelations were from God, some from Satan, and some from man.

And, all he had to do was look around him... he was lying, cheating, breaking the heart of his wife, destroying his family, harming marriages, sleeping around; the church was falling apart, even many of his close friends were telling him he was basically out of control.

While I do not think Joseph Smith was a prophet in any sense, I do think he was smart enough to see what what going on all around him.

~dancer~

[_charity]

Well much of what Brigham and other pro polygamists said is not from Joseph directly either. In fact we have very little if any from Joseph and most of what is directly from him he denies it, even publicly. Most of what we have from Nauvoo was written by William Clayton.

You are forgetting the official journal kept by Willard Richards.

So why believe the SLC polygamists more the Marks? From what I have read about Marks, I like him and think he may have been accurate. Keep in mind Marks was President of the Nauvoo stake at the time. During this period that position was much more then what we view a stake pres as today. He was the SP over the central stake and even in live to succeed Joseph.

No he was not "in line to succeed." The Quorum of the Twelve as a body had the authority following the death of the prophet. Much of Marks feelings about Joseph Smith seemed to be tied in with his divided loyalty to Sidney Rigdon, who also had these ideas of personal succession.

He has as much authority as BY did and in fact more for the central power issues related to the Church since the 12's authority was only in places where stakes were not organized. The 12 had no authority over Elders or High Priests but Marks did. The 12 had authority over 70's which one of the reasons after Joseph Smith was killed BY made hundreds of Elders and High Priests 70's.

You are forgetting the authority of the Quorum as a body. You keep talking about Brigham Young's authority as an individual. You are missing that vital piece.

I think Marks may have be more accurate then you think. To bad we will never know.

I intend to know. Once I get on the other side, I will have all the answers. I will even know which Cumorah is the correct one. :)

[_charity]

Hi Jason,

I think Marks may have be more accurate then you think. To bad we will never know.

I'm with you on this.


First, we know Joseph Smith stated that some revelations were from God, some from Satan, and some from man.

And, all he had to do was look around him... he was lying, cheating, breaking the heart of his wife, destroying his family, harming marriages, sleeping around; the church was falling apart, even many of his close friends were telling him he was basically out of control.

While I do not think Joseph Smith was a prophet in any sense, I do think he was smart enough to see what what going on all around him.

~dancer~

You sure left out a lot, dancer. Mobs harrassging and killing his people. A civil government that would not lift a finger to protect citizens of the United States with the rights they were promised under the Constitution. People who had said they were his friends betraying him for their own greed and avarice. Other "friends" making false accusations against him. And other friends weakening under mob pressure. I wonder why you didn't mention all that?

Plus your accusations of immorality are, again, baseless. I know your basic viewpoint will not allow any concept of plural marriage as a God given institution. But we must all see your accusations against Joseph Smith in light of this blind spot.

He was smart enough to see what was going on around him. Which is why he was planning to take the Saints West, where they could get away from the wicked and evil men. Brigham Young led the Saints to where Joseph planned for them to go. But the Lord had other plans for Joseph. It was necessary to establish his witness with his blood, as had Peter.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Charity...

sure left out a lot, dancer. Mobs harrassging and killing his people. A civil government that would not lift a finger to protect citizens of the United States with the rights they were promised under the Constitution. People who had said they were his friends betraying him for their own greed and avarice. Other "friends" making false accusations against him. And other friends weakening under mob pressure. I wonder why you didn't mention all that?

This has nothing to do with the possibility that Joseph realized he was doing a lot of things that were harming folks.

I'm not talking about OTHER people, I'm talking about Joseph Smith.

Plus your accusations of immorality are, again, baseless.

Immorality is YOUR term.

Are you suggesting Joseph Smith didn't lie? Cheat? Break Emma's heart? Sleep with other women? Break up families? Destroy marriages?

I know your basic viewpoint will not allow any concept of plural marriage as a God given institution.

Charity...... please read carefully.

GOD MAY VERY WELL HAVE CREATED A PLAN THAT DEMANDS ANYTHING.

Maybe God really does require villages be slaughtered. Maybe God really does ask fathers to kill their children. Maybe God does want folks to fly planes into buildings. Maybe God really does want women to be stoned? Maybe God really does want all American men killed. I hope not and it doesn't fit into my brain or heart but I am not claiming to know ultimate truth.

OK... are we clear here? Do you understand this?

How many times must I repeat myself for you to get a basic point?

I highly doubt the LDS version of the afterlife, or the LDS doctrines of life have anything to do with the divine, and they do not remotely in my opinion feel holy or healthy or sacred, but I ADMIT I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT IS INFINITY, ULTIMATE TRUTH, OR THE REALITY OF ALL THINGS ETERNAL. I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

OK... did you read this? Do you grasp this?

I'm not a black and white thinker like you. I don't claim to know all, or be one of the chosen, or have some secret, special, knowlege that only some select group of folks can understand, or be one of God's special elect group.

Now the question really is... do you think it is possible that Joseph Smith got it wrong? The polygamy is NOT of God? That Monogamy is what is truly God's will?

~dancer~

[_Imwashingmypirate]

Since the Chastity Thread has seemed to focus in a new direction, I thought I would start a new topic.

This is the current question being asked/debated:

Did God command polygamy, or was it a cultural norm that was tolerated by God? Good men whom he chose to be prophets participated in this culture, but was it commanded?

What kind of GOD would tolerate things??????????????????????????????? SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Man used God as an excuse to change the laws and do what ever was pleasing to them. I know I was there. There were pirates to be washed back then also.

[_charity]

Now the question really is... do you think it is possible that Joseph Smith got it wrong? The polygamy is NOT of God? That Monogamy is what is truly God's will?

~dancer~

\
No, I do not think it is possible that Joseph got it wrong. Polygamy is of God when He says it is. Otherwise, monogamy is God's will.

[_the road to hana]

I intend to know. Once I get on the other side, I will have all the answers. I will even know which Cumorah is the correct one. :)