Standing up together to Make a Change within Mormonism.

[_Themis]

In this situation I appear to be more of a half-full kinda thinker.

Rather than 'real' damage to active membership I see it as providing some real "unifying" help for families who are affected by people who have 'lost the tbm testimony' and who are compromised as a result of the way the current system operates - or by people who have to live/work in the Mormon myth environment.

I compare it to when I was a kid and found out that Santa Clause wasn't real and wasn't flying through the sky bringing me gifts. My friends and I discovered the reality and viewed it in hindsight more as a rite of passage. We left a childhood mindset and became embraced as members of a more adult one. This didn't mean that I stop celebrating with my stockings hung, the Santa Pictures on cards, and delightful songs of Santa. I still enjoy all the celebrations that unite a community together in festivity, but the difference is that I don't believe it's true.
The good aspects of festivities and myth are still there without the wool being pulled over my eyes.

I also don't agree with some others that claim that exposing the various falsehoods and frauds behind Mormonism would do away with the good aspects of it. I think it would shift focus and change. I don't know how anything that promotes truth could be considered a bad thing. It might be an adjustment, but how could it possibly be worse than listening to various people (like the man in the o.p., or my own self who lives in a Mormon environment with some challenge.)

I can't see a downside to asking for ethical upfront behavior from the apostles in this matter. Many questioning or postmo's avoid the thought of taking action to Make a Stand as if it were a new plague. but, not me.
I'm sure Packer prays he's dead before people actually grow some strength and courage and stop ignoring it.

You are really just describing what is going on right now. The church loses some members to this information while others stop believing but remain in the church for other reasons. This would just increase if Romney were to become President.

[_ShadowFax]

You are really just describing what is going on right now. The church loses some members to this information while others stop believing but remain in the church for other reasons. This would just increase if Romney were to become President.

It is going on right now but not on a very large scale of education. Not very many members know this information via the computer. so the church loses "some" members, as you say, but the current method is a very slow moving boulder down the mountainside.
If I had to pick a vehicle to increase those numbers, and speed it along, I wouldn't want to choose the Romney approach. Sure, the outcome may be the same, but I think there are easier ways of getting that job done with less overall repercussions then hoping for a Mormon to govern the U.S.A. thereby forcing the population to become educated through that approach.

Mind you, the SouthPark guys seem to be doing a decent job toward educating and their not even noms or exmo's. We have been trained in the methods of secrecy and quietly ignoring, so it's no wonder we transfer those traits to nom or postmo life.

I think that Packer didn't have to tell people in his conference talk to quietly ignore/silence, we've had that drilled into our brain from early on and appear to do it even without his suggestion. The fact that he even went out of his way to suggest it in a G.C. says to me that the suits are concerned. At this moment I think of Johnny Cash's version of "God's Gonna Cut You Down." ... ((You can run on for a long time, sooner or later God'll cut you down. What's done in the dark will be brought to the light.)

I'm hoping for sooner than later. I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from on that. After a while it gets really old and tiresome. I'm just tired of accommodating the hidden secrets.

[_Themis]

It is going on right now but not on a very large scale of education. Not very many members know this information via the computer. so the church loses "some" members, as you say, but the current method is a very slow moving boulder down the mountainside.
If I had to pick a vehicle to increase those numbers, and speed it along, I wouldn't want to choose the Romney approach. Sure, the outcome may be the same, but I think there are easier ways of getting that job done with less overall repercussions then hoping for a Mormon to govern the U.S.A. thereby forcing the population to become educated through that approach.

Mind you, the SouthPark guys seem to be doing a decent job toward educating and their not even noms or exmo's. We have been trained in the methods of secrecy and quietly ignoring, so it's no wonder we transfer those traits to nom or postmo life.

I think that Packer didn't have to tell people in his conference talk to quietly ignore/silence, we've had that drilled into our brain from early on and appear to do it even without his suggestion. The fact that he even went out of his way to suggest it in a G.C. says to me that the suits are concerned. At this moment I think of Johnny Cash's version of "God's Gonna Cut You Down." ... ((You can run on for a long time, sooner or later God'll cut you down. What's done in the dark will be brought to the light.)

I'm hoping for sooner than later. I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from on that. After a while it gets really old and tiresome. I'm just tired of accommodating the hidden secrets.

All I am saying is that if Romney were to become President it would have a negative effect from the POV of the church leaders(not that they see this). Also things like SP tend to be dismissed by the membership as lies and distortions. After all it is animated entertainment. With Romney a lot of information would be coming from sources that many members will have a harder time ignoring. I personally do worry about it, nor I am seeking the downfall of the church. I would like to see it change dramatically, and do see overall slow change since it's start, but I also realize that slow change is usually the norm with these kinds of things. In many ways apologia is an unwitting tool for change.

[_ShadowFax]

I would like to see it change dramatically, and do see overall slow change since it's start, but I also realize that slow change is usually the norm with these kinds of things. In many ways apologia is an unwitting tool for change.

It's true, for sure, apologia is definitely an unwitting tool for change. Like you, I'm not interested in a complete downfall, although it also wouldn't bother me if that happened.
I too wish there were a big change in the system which would make it easier for myself, and other mo's or nevermos like me, to interact more easily in the environment. With the current (and understandable) mindset of silently ignoring within the disaffected mo community it seems like outside help would be useful.

[_Themis]

Like you, I'm not interested in a complete downfall, although it also wouldn't bother me if that happened.

It certainly would not be the end of the world, but it could would be hard on many devout members if it happened to fast. Many people need slow change to adjust or allow older generations to die off.

With the current (and understandable) mindset of silently ignoring within the disaffected mo community it seems like outside help would be useful.

Outside help is usually a must for change. The church would still be practicing polygamy without outside pressure. Blacks would still not be getting the priesthood without outside pressure. Women still do not get the priesthood becuase there is no real pressure to do so from the outside or even inside. Until that happens you will not see change here.

[_ShadowFax]

Like you, I'm not interested in a complete downfall, although it also wouldn't bother me if that happened.

It certainly would not be the end of the world, but it could would be hard on many devout members if it happened to fast. Many people need slow change to adjust or allow older generations to die off.

With the current (and understandable) mindset of silently ignoring within the disaffected mo community it seems like outside help would be useful.

Outside help is usually a must for change. The church would still be practicing polygamy without outside pressure. Blacks would still not be getting the priesthood without outside pressure. Women still do not get the priesthood becuase there is no real pressure to do so from the outside or even inside. Until that happens you will not see change here.

I'm inclined to agree with you Themis.
Based on our Mormon training of fear of fall-out problems, secrecy, trained to ignore, trained to consider those in disagreement as an anti attacker, etc., etc, it's very hard even for ex-mo's to shake this influence sufficiently to be pro-active to the degree necessary to assist changes.

It's sad really because such changes indicated would help many living in the Mormon environment.

I realized that I forgot to link to the Mormon Expressions interview in my o.p. that caused me to ponder on the seriousness of this whole thing in the first place. Not that my own experiences weren't serious enough mind you. I've been used to battling through my own, but it's different when I view things from an outside perspective.
Link below:
http://mormonexpression.com/2011/02/03/episode-110-an-discussion-with-a-current-bishop/

[_Buffalo]

The real damage from this will be to the active membership of the church. People outside will be less inclined to join except for a few oddities. It will be just a weird curiosity.

That may already be the case. Most of the converts in my ward are drifters and mentally ill people - that's no exaggeration. The only way the church is going to sustain its numbers in America is through breeding.

Hence, the recent drive to get young men married off quickly.

[_Themis]

Hence, the recent drive to get young men married off quickly.

Maybe they should do like the old days and allow them to date and marry while on their mission. That should increase the number willing to go, and increase the number of baptisms, especially for attractive girls and some boys for our female missionaries. It's a win win scenario here.